Bible study rules for public schools proposed

Feb 10, 2010 | Posted by: roboblogger | Full story: The Courier-Journal

FRANKFORT, Ky. - The state would create rules for teaching about the Bible in public high schools under a bill filed Monday by three Democratic senators.

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“There is no god.”

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#85680
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havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> I disagree that pantheism (God is all that exists) is similar to making up another fictional character. The All that Is clearly exists. The fault is in the making up of a definition that few people would consider to be similar to anything they think of as being God.(But it is similar to Spinoza's view, which was a deeply philosophical and intelligent and daring view for his time and place)
Of course the God that is discussed on topix is mostly the Biblical one, but I do not think everyone on topix thinks of God as the Biblical-Koran-Torah God. And when atheists on topix write that there is no God, that is not the same thing as asserting that they think the God of the Bible is ridiculous. If it is to be assumed that the only version of God one is discussing is the Yahweh God, then one is being locally loyal, to one's tribal God (however big the tribe), and not philosophical.
To be philosophical would require a clear definition of what the God is, or what all the Gods are (perhaps a list from the godcheck site, plus a good philosophical dictionary listing and historical listing of all gods asserted by anyone ever). The believer would have it easier, in saying that he believes in one of them. The unbeliever would be required to state that he believes in none of them - and even then would perhaps have missed some suggested definition of a god or God from some other time or place. That is why I usually state that I do not believe in any of the gods that I have ever heard about or read about or thought about.
Furthermore, the clear conclusion that the God of the Bible is no good, is not proof that it does not exist. I think the universe if created by a powerful creator was likely created by a very flawed character, and the Biblical God is a very flawed character.
Luckily I do not believe that it was created by a creator, else I would be afraid - not because I am a bad person, but because it is a bad God, not to be trusted.
I just have a wider reach in my discussion than most folks here, because of having read so much philosophy both for pleasure and as a minor in college, and because of thinking through the issues in a philosophical way - free of religious indoctrination, and free of local social pressure.
I still do not understand why so many atheists even here, who focus on the Biblical God, are so assertive about it not existing, and their knowing it does not exist. That goes to another philosophical question, about what is knowledge, what is proof, what is evidence - and I think they fail to prove their assertion.
But it is clearly a rotten God, and discussing that is endlessly worthwhile. Every rotten aspect attributed to God in the Bible or by any preacher or supporter or worshipper should be subject to attack - including every rotten statement, commandment, attribute,
action, attitude, whatever.
Furthermore the consequences of believing in such a rotten God are very important, and well worth discussing. It can lead to horrible attitudes and behavior on the part of believers. The role of true believers in history is well worth discussing - the Inquisition, religious wars, persecutions of various types in various places and times.
Why is its non-existence, which is iffier, the focus, instead of its evil, which is evident to any decent openminded person?


"I just have a wider reach in my discussion than most folks here, because of having read so much philosophy both for pleasure and as a minor in college, and because of thinking through the issues in a philosophical way - free of religious indoctrination, and free of local social pressure."

Arrogant, I would say.

“Breaking the spell ”

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#85681
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havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> I disagree that pantheism (God is all that exists) is similar to making up another fictional character. The All that Is clearly exists. The fault is in the making up of a definition that few people would consider to be similar to anything they think of as being God.(But it is similar to Spinoza's view, which was a deeply philosophical and intelligent and daring view for his time and place)
Of course the God that is discussed on topix is mostly the Biblical one, but I do not think everyone on topix thinks of God as the Biblical-Koran-Torah God. And when atheists on topix write that there is no God, that is not the same thing as asserting that they think the God of the Bible is ridiculous. If it is to be assumed that the only version of God one is discussing is the Yahweh God, then one is being locally loyal, to one's tribal God (however big the tribe), and not philosophical.
To be philosophical would require a clear definition of what the God is, or what all the Gods are (perhaps a list from the godcheck site, plus a good philosophical dictionary listing and historical listing of all gods asserted by anyone ever). The believer would have it easier, in saying that he believes in one of them. The unbeliever would be required to state that he believes in none of them - and even then would perhaps have missed some suggested definition of a god or God from some other time or place. That is why I usually state that I do not believe in any of the gods that I have ever heard about or read about or thought about.
Furthermore, the clear conclusion that the God of the Bible is no good, is not proof that it does not exist. I think the universe if created by a powerful creator was likely created by a very flawed character, and the Biblical God is a very flawed character.
edited....
I still do not understand why so many atheists even here, who focus on the Biblical God, are so assertive about it not existing, and their knowing it does not exist. That goes to another philosophical question, about what is knowledge, what is proof, what is evidence - and I think they fail to prove their assertion.
But it is clearly a rotten God, and discussing that is endlessly worthwhile. Every rotten aspect attributed to God in the Bible or by any preacher or supporter or worshipper should be subject to attack - including every rotten statement, commandment, attribute,
action, attitude, whatever.
Furthermore the consequences of believing in such a rotten God are very important, and well worth discussing. It can lead to horrible attitudes and behavior on the part of believers. The role of true believers in history is well worth discussing - the Inquisition, religious wars, persecutions of various types in various places and times.
Why is its non-existence, which is iffier, the focus, instead of its evil, which is evident to any decent openminded person?
Ok, so god is all toasters. How is that any different than god is everything?
Claiming 'god is everything' does not point to a god doing anything. It is simply labeling the universe as god. It describes no action or trait of a god. You are simply substituting the word 'universe' with 'god'.
I can substitute the word 'toaster' with 'god' just the same, and it will be just as meaningless.

The god of the bible has claims that we can show with evidence never happened. So either the bible is describing the god wrongly, or it does not exist.
It is claimed the bible is perfect and god inspired the words, so if that is true, the evidence shows the god must not exist.

Atheism is simply a lack of belief. Some go beyond and claim no god can exist, but that is impossible to know. I claim a god is unlikely to exist and I personally do not believe any god exists.

But I really want to hear you explain the 'god is everything' a bit more. How can you know god is everything? What would lead you to believe this? Why should anyone else believe it? What does it matter?

“Breaking the spell ”

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havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> that was to defender. you seem to waver between trying to explain things to him, and saying you do not think your explanations will do any good. so I am curious about what your attitude is toward the folks you argue with. I suspect you may want to somehow "save" them from delusions, and feel frustrated that you cannot. I do not feel that you are motivated by hostility and a desire to put them down, or that you are arrogant when you say it is useless to try to convince them. It is almost as if you want to try despite being discouraged.
Much of what I write is not to the extreme creationist, as I have learned they will not change, no matter how hard I try. Sorry, but over the years, that is just so clear to me. I am writing in hopes others are reading that have an open mind.
It is frustrating. Why would it not be? When they are being hard headed or contradictory, I will call them out and not always be nice about it. Are they nice to me? Certainly not. Are you calling them out also? Sure, I have a grain of hope one will see the light, but pessimism is strong after seeing repeated lack of learning a single thing.

“Breaking the spell ”

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#85683
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havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text>Well, why are you willing to be on such an elementary level when you have such an excellent mind, and could go to the furthest philosophical reaches of discussion? Don't you get bored? You are obviously way too smart just for bankandforth arguments, and too civil for the more stupid backandforth insults, to be totally wasting your time.
This is a serious question, above, and following: are you trying to de-convert some believers, because you feel sorry for them and are trying to free them from their delusions? If so, that is nice of you. Do you think any reasoning at all could work with them?
I do get bored with it. That is why I left this tread for a while. I am up for some more nuanced debate if you wish to play.

But to answer your question, yes, I do wish for them to leave superstition behind for their sake, but also for societies sake. I feel religious extremism is hurting our society. I have multiple motives. Sometimes I just wish to test my own beliefs. I find discussing them makes one self examine his own ideals. If I cannot answer a question, maybe there is reason. Sometimes I am just not educated, but on occasion, I do find my own beliefs are flawed.
This happens usually in political discussions. I cannot recall any in a religious debate.

So if I am just uneducated on a topic, I study it more to be on point in a debate. So it is a great learning motivator.

Debating is fun for me. So for many years, I have studied just to be able to debate knowledgeably.
My favorite subject I have had to research so far is evolutionary psychology. Fascinating stuff.

I do feel some religious persons will convert. I have converted or at least contributed to converting quite a few people I know. Sometimes it is a simple as planting a seed of doubt. A year or two later I see them and they say they are now agnostic or atheist and give me credit.
I have seen none of these people regret loosing faith one bit.
I find it is almost a religious experience loosing faith and discovering the reality of our world.
I think one has the same enlightening, euphoric emotional experience.

I feel in my own conversion, a renewed lease on life. I can see clearly now the religion is gone.

“Breaking the spell ”

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Kathleen wrote:
I can't believe this is even an issue- of course teach the bible in school- if for no other reason than it is the basis of our culture, it could also be taught as history, as the bible is the most accurate historial work from ancient times. You want to teach evolution- a faith based belief - and call it science! You want to allow tolerance for other beliefs, then how can you justify blocking the belief system of 75% of the popualtion? This is absurd. Take a look to the right of this comment column- what do you see? the horoscope- a faith baaed system - now called 'new age' but really very old age- from Babylonia originally- and no one is screaming about it- wake up Americans before you lose your country and your heritage.
Astrology is not taught in public schools either. But no astrologist is demanding homosexuals have no right to marry.

Religion is spoke about in history classes. Christianity is spoken about in history classes. Often to the point were Christians get angry for showing the atrocities of the religions history. Crusades and inquisitions top the list. Witch burning in the new land(America).

The great flood never happened. Teaching this is not accurate history. Historians see no evidence of the exodus.
Whoever told you the bible is an accurate portrayal of history lied.

“Breaking the spell ”

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#85685
Aug 15, 2012
 
havent forgotten wrote:
oops, some miswording above. If God is defined as all that exists, then God exists - is my definition and assertion for the sake of argument and discussion. to invite rational discussion, not silly attacks from either side. I garbled the sentence in my above long quote by adding an extra word somehow.
If god is defined as as toasters, then god exists. Not trying to be a smart ass, just making a point.

“Breaking the spell ”

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havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> that is sort of incomplete. Do you mean God is the First Cause of everything?
'God first' is as incomplete as 'god is everything'.
Yes and Amen

Georgetown, KY

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Aug 15, 2012
 

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well wrote:
<quoted text>
Troops out of Iraq. Bin laden is dead. slowed the recession. Kept the auto industry from collapsing(jobs). Improved benefits and pay for veterans. Put an end to stop/loss.....oh, you said 1. Sorry. Now, name one thing Obama has done that has negatively affected you personally. Please.
"Troops out of Iraq."
Yes! Against ALL Military advisors, and
leaving that nation in worse shape than when we came in!
"Bin laden is dead."
Not his personal doing...
Anyone in office would have HAD to do the same!
"slowed the recession. "
"Kept the auto industry from collapsing(jobs)."
***CBN news letter***
Taxpayers are continuing to lose money from the auto industry bailout given to General Motors by the Obama administration.
A recent drop in GM stock prices means the government will lose $25 billion on the bailout.
The Obama administration spent $80 billion to dig GM and Ally Financial, the company's former finance arm, out of its debt. But so far, the government has only been paid back $37 billion.
Currently, the government owns 500 million shares of General Motors stock. But the stock price dropped 15 percent between late February and May, costing taxpayers another $3.3 billion.
******
Hahahahahahhaha! to both these I say
see above (Bin Laden)!
"Improved benefits and pay for veterans."
Maybe... Where did he get the funds to do this?
Borrowed it from China???
Who's got to pay it back?
" Now, name one thing Obama has done that has negatively affected you personally."
His polocies have hindered economic growth, even though I am
working more this year than last year, it's more for richer people that have bought
other peoples reposessed houses for a song, and putting minimal amount of dollars
into them to rent them out!
Case in point... Right after the collapse, I purchesd my home for $65k, two years later,
my neighbor lost his house. The bank asked $62, and sold it for $46!
That's 3 years into his administration! If that is what we get to look forwad to...
Four more years of this.... My own home will be worth about $12k
Not that this would bother me much.... personally!
You might want to watch Fox for more detailed info on his.... uh... record!

Buy a clue!
He cares not for you!

“Breaking the spell ”

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#85688
Aug 15, 2012
 

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havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> I find one reason alone to accept Romneys if they win - if the horse comes with them to the White House lawn. R&R's election and policies would be too big a price to pay.
I am sure the Romney's do not keep their horses at their home now. I am sure they are at some ranch being taken care of by the 'help'.
If they keep them at the white house, how will they be able to get their seventy thousand dollar tax loophole deduction again?
Yes and Amen

Georgetown, KY

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#85689
Aug 15, 2012
 

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Spaceship earth wrote:
<quoted text>i
If what you say it true the why support either party and compromise your position as christian and watchman for God by supporting a possible anti-christ. You may get the mark of the beast. Get your tooth bush ready you may be put on latrine duty with God.
If we kill one less baby...
I think He'll be happy...
BTW
A federal lawsuit against Planned Parenthood in Texas is moving forward after a federal court agreed Friday with a suit filed by the American Center for Law and Justice.
The ACLJ alleges that the abortion provider defrauded taxpayers by charging state and federal governments for services not actually provided, unnecessary procedures, and other services not covered under Medicaid or other programs.
The suit asserts that Planned Parenthood regularly falsified patient charts and submitted false claims to the United States and Texas governments for reimbursement.
The Texas federal court held that if the allegations in the suit on behalf of former employee, Karen Reynolds are proven, then Planned Parenthood engaged in a "fraudulent scheme to maximize revenues" and therefore violated federal law.
The court denied Planned Parenthood's attempt to have the case dropped.
On its website, the ACLJ noted the decision is a "major victory as this case to hold Planned Parenthood accountable moves forward to trial."
Yes and Amen

Georgetown, KY

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#85690
Aug 15, 2012
 

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Mike Duquette wrote:
<quoted text>Obama saved America from a depression. The economy was in a steep downward spiral. Now it is relatively stable. I see you are so partisan you cannot give Obama credit for saving our economy Bush put us into.
And is the president not allowed to play? Must he work 24/7? He is a human. Humans need play for optimal health. Do you wish for our leader to be dysfunctional?
You are just full of Fox news talking points with no substance. Blind sheep.
Crock!
When did the Dems take control of the Senate?
Yes and Amen

Georgetown, KY

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#85691
Aug 15, 2012
 

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LOL in a suit wrote:
<quoted text>"God is Real!" Not
God is real! YES!
No matter how much you want... WANT Him not to be!

Since: Apr 12

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Aug 15, 2012
 

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Yes and Amen wrote:
<quoted text>Crock!
When did the Dems take control of the Senate?
About the same time the Senate GOP set a new filibuster record.(refered to as Cloture)
110th Congress: A)Motions Filed:139 B)Votes on Cloture:112
C)Cloture Invoked:61
111th Congress: A)137 B)91 C)63
112th Congress: A)104 B)64 C)33
Source: U.S. Senate website http://www.senate.gov/pagelayout/reference/cl...
Yes and Amen

Georgetown, KY

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Aug 15, 2012
 

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havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> well, we expect you to be crazy. you want it to get rough, don't you? you are a sadist, i think.
I think for an agnostic, you oughta kick back, and search yourself!
You have a soul, and when the body dies... it's gatta come out!
Look at all the NDE's including the ones by young kids...
Kids that never heard of NDE's... telling the same stories as the adults!
Look to yerself... You KNOW there is something bigger!
Look around the world... it is getting bad, and at this
rate.... 4-6 years is all we got!
God made a way for YOU, and I to be with Him!
Hope you are there!
Amen!
Yes and Amen

Georgetown, KY

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#85694
Aug 15, 2012
 

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Spaceship earth wrote:
Still Voting For 'Mitt Romney'?
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
I'd vote for YOU over Osama... IF you were a Republican!
Yes and Amen

Georgetown, KY

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#85695
Aug 15, 2012
 

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LOL in a suit wrote:
<quoted text>No wonder you are confused, the american standard bible, wow how distorted will you religies make the bible.
I AGREE!
Ugh!
That ASBible, and the NLT New lying translation.... NOT GOOD!
Yes and Amen

Georgetown, KY

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Amen wrote:
Yes they should teach the Bible in schools but also as a Christian I do believe it would be a good thing to teach at the middle and high school age level but you have to give these children Christians do believe that religion can't be forced upon anyone. Offer the classes if the children want to take the bible classes then let them but dot force them too take them they already make the children study religions so why not give them the choice to study the religion our country was founded on in depth and what it really means to be a Christian and to live that kind of live. Of the children of the world were taught about Jesus and had the choice everyday to accept him as thier savior instead of just on Sunday's and wednesdays(and that's only if thier parents take them to church) well then maybe this world could Change and be a better place. A place where you felt safe like you use to
Amen!
Yes and Amen

Georgetown, KY

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#85697
Aug 15, 2012
 

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Kathleen wrote:
I can't believe this is even an issue- of course teach the bible in school- if for no other reason than it is the basis of our culture, it could also be taught as history, as the bible is the most accurate historial work from ancient times. You want to teach evolution- a faith based belief - and call it science! You want to allow tolerance for other beliefs, then how can you justify blocking the belief system of 75% of the popualtion? This is absurd. Take a look to the right of this comment column- what do you see? the horoscope- a faith baaed system - now called 'new age' but really very old age- from Babylonia originally- and no one is screaming about it- wake up Americans before you lose your country and your heritage.
Great Post!
Yes and Amen

Georgetown, KY

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#85698
Aug 15, 2012
 

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Mike Duquette wrote:
<quoted text> Astrology is not taught in public schools either. But no astrologist is demanding homosexuals have no right to marry.
Religion is spoke about in history classes. Christianity is spoken about in history classes. Often to the point were Christians get angry for showing the atrocities of the religions history. Crusades and inquisitions top the list. Witch burning in the new land(America).
The great flood never happened. Teaching this is not accurate history. Historians see no evidence of the exodus.
Whoever told you the bible is an accurate portrayal of history lied.
Wrong again!
Yes and Amen

Georgetown, KY

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#85699
Aug 15, 2012
 

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Geesh!
When your head clears up, and the Lust dies down, and the truth hits you in the face...
You are a sinner, the nasty stuff you did turns
your stomach, and you want to get away from your past...
This kind of stupidity happens!
...
Virginia Pastor Timothy David Miller was convicted Tuesday of helping a former lesbian flee the country with her young daughter.
Lisa Miller, who is not related to the pastor, was involved in a custody dispute with her former lesbian partner, Janet Jenkins, over her daughter Isabella.
The dispute took place after Miller, the girl's birth mother, renounced homosexuality, became a Christian, and moved to Virginia.
She disappeared in September of 2009 along with the child after a Vermont judge awarded custody of the child to Jenkins, who is the non-biological parent.
After several hours of deliberation Tuesday, the jury convicted Timothy Miller of aiding in the removal of a child from the United States with intent to obstruct lawful exercise of parental rights.
The Stuarts Draft, Va., pastor could be sentenced to serve up to three years for the crime.
"I am willing to accept the consequences of my actions," Miller said Tuesday. "I am at peace with God. I am peace with my conscience and I give it over to God, and at the same time I respect the decision of the court."
The pastor, who was ordered to surrender his passport, will remain free pending sentencing.
Meanwhile, Jenkins is suing her former partner and the pastor for unspecified monetary damages.
...
Praise God! He can make the Un-clean, Clean again!
Amen!

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