Semantics rule gay marriage debate

I am a happily married gay man, living in Massachusetts. What is the big deal? MA has not broken off the continental shelf and fallen into the ocean, experienced any swarms of locust or firestorms, and we have one of the lowest (if not THE lowest) counts of divorce in the country. So much for marriage being destroyed if it goes to the gays.

For my black brothers and sisters who get all offended - there are gay black men and gay black women too, you know. Those folk have to deal with oppression far more than their hetero brethren - but playing a "I'm more oppressed than YOU!" contest just leaves us both bloodied. I was with a black man for over a year, and that opened my eyes to many things I could never see, living the life of a white man.

Gays and lesbians are fired from their jobs, disowned from their families, kicked out of their houses, beaten, blackmailed and stolen from, murdered and left tied to fences in Wyoming and other parts of this country. I ask you not to think just because we were not kept as slaves this means we have not suffered and died for being who we are born to be. Being denied 'rights' because of skin color is not the only civil rights issue in this country. These issues are a lot bigger than that. By not recognizing this you diminish yourself.

So whats the problem?

By definition, civil rights have nothing specifically to do with any one group.

The discrimination that gays and lesbians face IS a lesser evil than what African Americans have faced.

HOWEVER, it does by no means make it acceptable to continue to discriminate against gays and lesbians.

A lesser evil? Just because it is not as visible doesn't make it any less evil to be discriminated against. I could be fired, jailed, fined, beaten, and killed for being a lesbian. In my state there are no protections for orientation.

There is no such thing in my mind as less evil or a lesser version of discrimination. And just to clarify, the FBI just put out its report on crime and violence in the United States and hate crimes against the LGBT community shot up 6% over the previous year, while other crimes decreased.

virescentgirl wrote:

I could be fired, jailed, fined, beaten, and killed for being a lesbian.

In reality, that is why you got the job. As for being fired, well they wouldn't actually say that was the reason, because you'd cry discrimination. It's getting very, very old.

virescentgirl wrote:

A lesser evil? Just because it is not as visible doesn't make it any less evil to be discriminated against. I could be fired, jailed, fined, beaten, and killed for being a lesbian. In my state there are no protections for orientation.
There is no such thing in my mind as less evil or a lesser version of discrimination. And just to clarify, the FBI just put out its report on crime and violence in the United States and hate crimes against the LGBT community shot up 6% over the previous year, while other crimes decreased.

Pardon my ignorance, but aside from being crimes committed against you, as a gay person, wouldn't they also count as hate crimes?

And I understand that discrimination against someone homosexual is as difficult to prove as discrimination against an older individual applying for a job, but doesn't the umbrella of EEO also afford you protection?

I ask, because your statement reads (to me) that you have no protections, when I was always under the impression that homosexual persons (at least in terms of employment/acts of violence against them) are protected by the same rights.

John W Beck wrote:

I am a happily married gay man, living in Massachusetts. What is the big deal? MA has not broken off the continental shelf and fallen into the ocean, experienced any swarms of locust or firestorms, and we have one of the lowest (if not THE lowest) counts of divorce in the country. So much for marriage being destroyed if it goes to the gays.
For my black brothers and sisters who get all offended - there are gay black men and gay black women too, you know. Those folk have to deal with oppression far more than their hetero brethren - but playing a "I'm more oppressed than YOU!" contest just leaves us both bloodied. I was with a black man for over a year, and that opened my eyes to many things I could never see, living the life of a white man.
Gays and lesbians are fired from their jobs, disowned from their families, kicked out of their houses, beaten, blackmailed and stolen from, murdered and left tied to fences in Wyoming and other parts of this country. I ask you not to think just because we were not kept as slaves this means we have not suffered and died for being who we are born to be. Being denied 'rights' because of skin color is not the only civil rights issue in this country. These issues are a lot bigger than that. By not recognizing this you diminish yourself.

wonderful post !

Economic issues matter and marriage is an economic issue. Studies show that married people are slightly healthier (less costs) and wealthier (pay more taxes) than their single counterparts and this is true for all people on the spectrum of human sexual orientation. Therefore, it is in the best economic interest's of the state to grant marriage equality.

progressive wrote:

<quoted text>
Pardon my ignorance, but aside from being crimes committed against you, as a gay person, wouldn't they also count as hate crimes?
And I understand that discrimination against someone homosexual is as difficult to prove as discrimination against an older individual applying for a job, but doesn't the umbrella of EEO also afford you protection?
I ask, because your statement reads (to me) that you have no protections, when I was always under the impression that homosexual persons (at least in terms of employment/acts of violence against them) are protected by the same rights.

You are quite correct progressive. It is a fact that in the present day, REVERSE discrimination is now more often than not, the norm. Just read this forum, it is so prevalent.

I can tell you that I have been passed up for a few promotions because I am a white, heterosexual male. Did i complain about it? Maybe a little to be honest. But I pride myself in my work, and I strive to do better and work harder. These are the cards I am dealt, so I must play them to the best of my ability. I refuse to whine. I refuse to shout discrimination. I refuse to cry about the diversity crap that has been shoved down my throat. Instead, I do my job, I do it well, and I live with whatever comes my way.

boarderthom wrote:

Economic issues matter and marriage is an economic issue. Studies show that married people are slightly healthier (less costs) and wealthier (pay more taxes) than their single counterparts and this is true for all people on the spectrum of human sexual orientation. Therefore, it is in the best economic interest's of the state to grant marriage equality.

Whats the big deal, Gays already have civil unions why keep pressing this down our throats. Civil Unions are legal now!

It does discriminate against two siblings living under the same roof though. One cannot be listed on the others insurance or any other benefits.

I am not anti-semetic, but I am anti-semantic.

progressive wrote:

<quoted text>
Pardon my ignorance, but aside from being crimes committed against you, as a gay person, wouldn't they also count as hate crimes?
And I understand that discrimination against someone homosexual is as difficult to prove as discrimination against an older individual applying for a job, but doesn't the umbrella of EEO also afford you protection?
I ask, because your statement reads (to me) that you have no protections, when I was always under the impression that homosexual persons (at least in terms of employment/acts of violence against them) are protected by the same rights.

Sadly that isn't the case. To date, there is no federal recognition of sexual orientation as a suspect classification in terms of employment and such protections are only offered by twenty states and the District of Columbia as well as a number of municipalities and counties in states where there is no state law. A bill known as the Employment Non-Discrimination Act (ENDA), which would establish federal protection on the basis of sexual orientation, has been repeatedly floated in Congress since 1978, but has yet to be passed. As for hate crimes against people on the basis of sexual orientation, while the FBI keeps track of them, they are not viewed as a hate crime under federal law. Of the 42 states which have have hate crime statutes on their books, only 22 of them and the District of Columbia consider crimes committed on the basis of sexual orientation to be in violation. On the federal level, a bill known as "The Matthew Shepard Act" has been floating around for the better part of a decade, again without being passed.

Our reality is we have been dependent on the states to ensure and protect our rights due to federal inaction on the issue and in most cases we've been let down. In many states, it is perfectly legal to discriminate against someone on the basis of sexual orientation not only in employment but something as basic as public accomodation. When you hear many gay people say that they resent being treated as second class citizens, it's the truth, because discriminatory acts against us are often supported by the laws we have to live by.

To Mia Morrison, stop and read your history. Civil rights refers to rights granted by legislation or court action. The African-American experience is several HUNDRED years old. The Homosexual experience spans several THOUSAND years. Black people were enslaved and are still discriminated against, although the law prevents such outward acts. Gay people have suffered torture, imprisonment and execution for simply being who we are. Gay people STILL endure legal discrimination in many states, including those who deny marriage equality. African-Americans trivialize their OWN history by denying the relevance of today's Gay-American struggle. Oh, and by the way, black folks usually come from black families, those who share in their struggle. Gay folks largely come from straight parents, and we lack the support of familial community.

Real Vermonter wrote:

So whats the problem?

People like you

OMG1 wrote:

<quoted text>
Whats the big deal, Gays already have civil unions why keep pressing this down our throats. Civil Unions are legal now!
It does discriminate against two siblings living under the same roof though. One cannot be listed on the others insurance or any other benefits.

Although Civil Unions are legal, in terms of the rights, benefits and protections associated with them, they have proved to be less than equal to marriage. While under the US Constitution, the regulation of "marriage" is left to the states, more than 1,100 federal laws and regulations recognize marriages, but have no mention of civil unions leaving those in such legal recognitions high and dry. Once the federal DOMA statute is repealed by Congress or overturned by the courts as unconstitutional, those couples shuffled off to separate categories such as civil unions will still be out in the cold.
Actually, you'd be surprised how many rights siblings over same sex partnerships in states with no legal protections, where you have a legal next of kin living under the same roof as compared to a legal stranger. In states where no recognition are offered, we are advised to get powers of attorney, wills, etc, all of which can be legally challenged by that sibling and overturned because of their legal relationshp to you. Civil unions only offer the bare minimum of protection that marriages offer to opposite sex couples.

Andreas Lights wrote:

To Mia Morrison, stop and read your history. Civil rights refers to rights granted by legislation or court action. The African-American experience is several HUNDRED years old. The Homosexual experience spans several THOUSAND years. Black people were enslaved and are still discriminated against, although the law prevents such outward acts. Gay people have suffered torture, imprisonment and execution for simply being who we are. Gay people STILL endure legal discrimination in many states, including those who deny marriage equality. African-Americans trivialize their OWN history by denying the relevance of today's Gay-American struggle. Oh, and by the way, black folks usually come from black families, those who share in their struggle. Gay folks largely come from straight parents, and we lack the support of familial community.

Just trying to be helpful here. Your post screams of an "us vs. them" mentality. The constant "we" in your post only emphasizes that point. Perhaps this is part of the problem. Regardless of skin color and the like, the only "we" that exists is the us called the human race.

Homosexuality is not a civil rights issue. Homosexual pressure groups merely spin it that way. Homosexuality is not genetic and it's not immutable.

Lou wrote:

Homosexuality is not a civil rights issue. Homosexual pressure groups merely spin it that way. Homosexuality is not genetic and it's not immutable.

when the rights that are extended to other citizens of this country are denied to me then it is, in fact, a civil rights issue

i am a member of no group - i am a member of a same gender partnership who has limited rights to protect my wife and child

scientific research shows a strong indication that orientation is, in fact, present from the beginning of life and if you are not same gender oriented how would you know, any way ?

if you are opposite gender oriented, what difference does any of this make to you and your life ?

Lou wrote:

Homosexuality is not a civil rights issue. Homosexual pressure groups merely spin it that way. Homosexuality is not genetic and it's not immutable.

Yeah, the American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the American Counseling Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics and the World Health Organization all disagree, but we'll all ignore that and just get our information on human sexuality from Lou.

scuter pie wrote:

<quoted text>
when the rights that are extended to other citizens of this country are denied to me then it is, in fact, a civil rights issue

I am still waiting (it has been weeks now) for anyone to explain to me how the civil union differs from marriage in the benefits received in the State of Vermont.

In other words, the rights you seek have ALREADY BEEN GRANTED.