Minnesota school superintendents say funding system broken

Mankato Mike wrote:

Minnesota needs to stop throwing money at the education mess and come up with a new plan. We have in real terms increased spending on K-12 by 28%(adjusted for inflation) the past 10 years while our student enrolment numbers have declined. MN spends 2.6 billion on special education and ESL each year. These children are not our future inventors and leaders who are being short changed by Minnesota schools. Parents of Gifted and Talented youths better be wealthy because most districts have the parents pay hundreds of dollars out of their own pockets to have their children tested and then these parents pay thousands more out of their pockets to place these students in accelerated classes at the UofM and elsewhere, yet we spend billions on children who are mentally challenged and inspire to one day clean up after us at McDonalds.
Minnesota needs to break free of Federal mandates that force us to spend 2.6 billion on special education and ESL (Supposedly reimbursed by the Federal Government but has never been so) and use this money to invest in the gifted and talented and “average” student body. We need to stop wasting 19% of our yearly State Education budget on future Wal-Mart greeters and spend it on our future engineers, scientists, and leaders!

Mankato Mike,

You do touch on a real problem, however, you could stand a little tact/class and I don't know that your position is entirely fair (as presented anyway). There are definite environmental factors resulting from industrialism (mercury emissions being one of many) that has contributed to a significant increase of severe nuerological disorders. As a result, special education (which is far more costly than general education) demand has risen incredibly and is (as you point out) consuming an inordant amount of education fudning. I wouldn't disagree with you that this is impacting available resources for average and gifted students and that it's a problem. Considering that we all benefit from the institutions that have contributed to this situation (i.e., we all like our electricity and cars, etc..), I think it's fair to say that there is a moral obligation to provide some level of releif to those suffering from these disabilities and the families that have to care for them. I guess, your position would be more well rounded if you made some suggestion regarding what should be done with these individuals. Are you suggesting that we just exclude them from the school system and if so, what releif do you feel is justified for the disabled and their families.

Again, I don't disagree with you, I just think you've stated the obvious and haven't provided any answers.

Mankato Mike wrote:

Minnesota needs to stop throwing money at the education mess and come up with a new plan. We have in real terms increased spending on K-12 by 28%(adjusted for inflation) the past 10 years while our student enrolment numbers have declined. MN spends 2.6 billion on special education and ESL each year. These children are not our future inventors and leaders who are being short changed by Minnesota schools. Parents of Gifted and Talented youths better be wealthy because most districts have the parents pay hundreds of dollars out of their own pockets to have their children tested and then these parents pay thousands more out of their pockets to place these students in accelerated classes at the UofM and elsewhere, yet we spend billions on children who are mentally challenged and inspire to one day clean up after us at McDonalds.
Minnesota needs to break free of Federal mandates that force us to spend 2.6 billion on special education and ESL (Supposedly reimbursed by the Federal Government but has never been so) and use this money to invest in the gifted and talented and “average” student body. We need to stop wasting 19% of our yearly State Education budget on future Wal-Mart greeters and spend it on our future engineers, scientists, and leaders!

The goal of education is not to make geniuses of all people, but to give each student the education that will help them become the best adults they can be. Schools are supposed to be turning out people who become independent, contributing members of society. It goes far beyond scientists and leaders...

When we introduce a hierarchy of "rights" based on who we think will be the most valuable members of society, where does it stop? Do we stop with education or do we determine which other rights should be withheld. Who gets health insurance? Who lives in which community? How about who lives and who dies? Would you make the cut, Mike?

Special education includes not just those with significant cognitive delays, but those with mental health issues, physical disabilities, dyslexia and related cognitive issues and learners for whom English is a new language. Have you ever heard of F. W. Woolworth, Albert Einstein, George Patton, and Nelson Rockefeller? Under your criteria, they would not have been given an education.

As for expense to parents of gifted kids, every student in Minnesota has the right to enter college when they are a junior in high school. This accelerated program provides the opportunity for a student to attend two years of college at no expense to parents. The state pays the full cost of tuition and books, and local districts lose $6,000 per student in aid. The parents pay nothing.

It is a crime that the federal government has not lived up to its end of the bargain and is only covering 17% of the 40% they promised when they enacted special education laws. Your beef should not be with those who receive special education, but those who wrote the laws and then reneged on their promise.

How much more money do you need to pour down the black hole called education?

What is the news in this article? All they want to do is for the DFL to fund the special interest that give them the money. Remeber, this is not education, it is union education.

I have an idea for "change." Let's fund children and not unions! Let's give children hope, not special interests hope. Let us give power to families, not the special interest who give the money to the DFL.

one question for all the superintendents? how much per pupil do you need? Or asked another way how much is enough? Answer that question with some hard and factual numbers and then get back to me.

I wonder how much education funding has increased over the past 20 years or so comnpared to everything else?

Oh ...... really?

Mankato Mike wrote:

MN spends 2.6 billion on special education and ESL each year. These children are not our future inventors and leaders who are being short changed by Minnesota schools. Parents of Gifted and Talented youths better be wealthy because most districts have the parents pay hundreds of dollars out of their own pockets to have their children tested and then these parents pay thousands more out of their pockets to place these students in accelerated classes at the UofM and elsewhere, yet we spend billions on children who are mentally challenged and inspire to one day clean up after us at McDonalds.
Minnesota needs to break free of Federal mandates that force us to spend 2.6 billion on special education and ESL (Supposedly reimbursed by the Federal Government but has never been so) and use this money to invest in the gifted and talented and “average” student body. We need to stop wasting 19% of our yearly State Education budget on future Wal-Mart greeters and spend it on our future engineers, scientists, and leaders!

I'll TRY to be careful, because my son is Autistic. However, moronic discrimination needs to be addressed:
1. My son's a Learning Disabled caucasion kid who's funding was cut, because there are more ESL kids that use the funding disbursement to the school district.
2. I used to pay the County for some of the school services. Why? Because the State cut back funding when Pawlenty took over so the school district taps the funds appropriated through property taxes. I pay fees (no, I'm not being sarcastic) based on my income ALONG WITH my property taxes.
It's not just the so-called "gifted" that pay out of pocket. I did the paperwork to drop my son because the documented dollar amount of "benefit" was less than what I was paying per quarter (that was about $330 per month). Who pockets that difference?
3. "(Supposedly reimbursed by the Federal Government but has never been so)". Do your homework! Remember when Pawlenty announced the so-called surplus? One of the few times he told the truth was when he stated that "we" needed to pay back some education dollars. Minnesota receives over $200 million from the Feds that's "earmarked" for Special Education. It has been reappropriated to the General Fund (thus, it needed to be "paid back"). "Never been so", because Pawlenty and the Republicans (at those times) stole it to "balance" the budget.
4. My Autistic son is pursuing his degree in Commercial and Graphic Arts.
Along with incredible skills, he's also learned that everybody is talented. That's why he's polite to the people who clean and hold the door for him at McDonald's.

Asking Minnesota school superintendents if they need more tax dollars is like asking a heroin addict if he needs more opium.

I've worked for a highly respected design firm. When the economy has gone in the toilet (remember 2002?), those of us in management took a pay cut - some of us more than others. We weren't the only ones doing that.
When management in our public schools has "exhausted all means" to cut budgets, when is the last time administrators took pay cuts? They're not under union contract....

Hey Get A Clue
I can tell you a liberal, because you assume you know more than everyone else. I would bet the farm the I know far more than you on the topic of education funding. If anyone wants an education - go to minneapolis public school website. Look at the stats. number of students, number of teachers, number of teacher asnts, number of admin. With a few simple calculations you can determine how many students per teacher and how many students per admin. Now I know this isn't perfect because of some factors. Like mandated ppositions. But MPS has a student to admin ratio of like 125 to 1. Get A Clue - that isn't wasteful?

By the way the problem with a funding formula that goes from local to state then divided equally to local is that local control is destroyed. You ask who cares. Well what if st paul schools are completely mismanaged(hard to imagine right) and you live in Hugo. You can't do anything about. You don't have the power to vote out the school board or put pressure of other local officials, yet you are paying.

by the way don't leave out the behavior problem kids that get labeled special ed and cost us tons. One funding solution allow the teachers to discpline the students and the schools to throw out the brats. Then punish the dead beat parents who let there kids run wild. Limit liability of schools when they have to physically restrain those little monsters. I'm not talking about the retarded or other mentally challenged. i'm talking behavior problems

I am surprised that many writers are so eager to privatize education. Private school tuition for schools in the metro that offer a K-12 education and a full academic program averages roughly $20,000 a year (add to that the money that comes from the annual campaign and endowment). Full service K-12 parochial schools average a bit over $10,000 (add to that annual campaign, church subsidies and teacher pay that often includes free tuition for their children in exchange for a lower pay scale. These schools are exempt from many state and federal mandates, and rarely accept students with special needs or significant academic difficulty.

In short, private education is significantly more expensive than public education (there are a few exceptions, typically driven by the munber of students receiving extra support services to compensate for poverty or concentrations of special needs children) Are we willing to fund the public system at the same level with extra money for each special needs child so we can compare apples to apples? Are we willing to write a check for the full tuition amount so students can choose these more expensive private schools?

The problem of school finance is a combination of unfunded mandates, some inefficiencies, cultural factors that do not encourage learning and the reality that we may not be providing enough funding for core services (money that cannot be used for programs that are legally required but not funded). It's easy to point a quick finger, but the problem is more complicated.

I just want to see one thing from schools...

Regular public audits. Let us see where the money is going. Audit once every 4 years at a minimum, more often if schools are asking for an increase of funding that is more than the rate of inflation.

Education Minnesota and the Supers won't be happy until they have 100% of the state's general fund dedicated to them. Even then they would insist on the willing DFL's to raise taxes more. For liberals there is always a crisis and therefore an excuse to raise taxes.

People, read the stinking article it doesn't say that they want more money!!! They aren't asking for more money they are saying that the system is broken. The system currently funds schools mostly based upon their local tax base. This is houses and businesses. Rural schools and schools with lower incomes have more difficulties raising money for strudents. These schools are stuck trying to provide for their students with significantly less dollar amounts. This is what the superintendents were talking about. You guys are totally missreading the article!!

level headed professor wrote:

The largest problem with the education system is the government monopoly on it. Parents need to be given the option of where the education money allocated to their children should be spent. Competition in the education system will bring out the excellence in teachers who can then raise the level of teaching. Many wonderful teachers should be compensated more highly for their skill but the union and government monopoly prevent reward longevity rather than perfomance.

AMEN!!

Take a look at the founder. From their OWN website:
Board Chair and Founder
Matt Entenza

No DFL bias there....

Amazing what passes as "news" these days.

I wonder how many of the people posting here have kids in public schools. Maybe a fun exercise would be for you to look at your child's school and decide what level of service is right - if it was your child, how many students per class would be too many? If it was your child, how low would you want to push teacher salaries? If it was your child's school, how much would you want them to cut back on extracurricular activities? If your child was special ed, how much would you want services cut? If your child needed extra help, how many aides would you want cut? If your child was at the low-end of performance, would you agree with Mankato Mike that they should just be prepared for a job at McDonalds, or would you want the teacher to do what they could to help them succeed?

I'm not saying schools need more or less money. But it's always very easy to talk about it in the abstract - I challenge all of you to think about the kind of education you want for your child in a public school, and what you think it would cost to get there. Are your answers different than if you just think about some other person's child?

Do you think they would say they have too much money? Actually they do.

steve baker wrote:

I wonder how much education funding has increased over the past 20 years or so comnpared to everything else?
Oh ...... really?

I can imagine that technology and energy costs have gone up more than inflation. Understanding more special needs kids (physical and mental disabilities) probably adds a bit to the situation, too.

I'll be fair and say there are spending problems. I saw it happen right after I graduated from high school. I think all issues like these should be a two-pronged approach; seeing where costs go up and seeing where other costs can attempt to go down. Like most $ issues, this is a complex problem with no simple fixes.