teen challenge

My mistake. She told me on the phone what happened, but there seems to be a bit of a discrepancy now as to how it happened. The main thing is that he's in another program now. No more Montoya.

Viv wrote:

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Of course the other option is jail. When you are a drug addict and/or alcoholic you are going to get in trouble and you are going to go to jail... hello!!! Teen Challenge is your last opportunity to change your life around, and just because you failed, doesn't mean it doesn't work. People that fail don't like discipline, rules, because they've been spoiled by their moms and dads and people around them, and they've been doing whatever they want. That's why they can't keep a job, and they don't succeed. And yes, God will remove your addiction if you are willing to give it up. Is not brain washing, or cult. If you choose not to believe in God, He won't be on your side...

You said it perfectly!!!!

Cherokee lady wrote:

<quoted text>Tammy, I'm so happy to hear that your fiance is drug free. It's interesting that those that had a good experience at Teen Challenge seem to attack and defend those that had a very bad experience.... My son is in a 12 step program that Teen Challenge told them "was spitting in the face of Jesus". It is a spiritual program. I am an advocate of tough love, and no, I do NOT blame the schools for discipline problems. I did not expect Teen Challenge to "do all the work and clean my son up". An addict must first have the desire to change his/her life. I just do not endorse any type of mental abuse or brainwashing tactics, which we experienced ( AS COUNTLESS OTHERS HAVE ALSO EXPERIENCED.) I appreciate being in a country where freedom of speech allows us to speak the truth of our experiences. Separation of church and state is a clause in our laws for a very good reason...I am happy that you and your family experienced something positive from a Teen Challenge. I am empathetic for those that are experiencing religious dogma brainwashing as well as mental abuse and are stuck there. Thus the "it sucks" comment. It's slang for a negative experience. I'm curious how you are able to judge someone from 2 words and state "it zooms on where we start off at". Interesting. Anyway, I send only congrats for your fiance's miraculous life change. It's a wonderful thing when one can change his/her life and find sobriety. As has been stated everywhere, there are good AND bad experiences and Teen Challenges. I don't know if there are any answers about fixing the problems. They do exist, and that's a fact.

Im just wondering CL.lets just say things had been different for your son.Lets just say that he had completed the program and like some people have posted here,the TC program changed his life. What if he had come home to you a different man.What if he was persueing a higher education-instead of just a high?If he had retured from TC with a mindset to serve the Lord,to change his life,change his friends,get married and have a family, and then followed thru with that,and you never again had to worry about seeing him on drugs,in jail or prison,or worse yet,dead.If TC had "fixed" your son,would you still call it brainwashing? Would you tell some mother who's child is lost in a world of drug abuse that she should stay away from TC because its an awful place?It may not of worked for you son,and we have only heard your side of it--but that doesnt mean it wont work for someone else. You are not angry at the program,your angry because it didnt work.And I can understand that.I hope that your son finds something that will work and I wish him success.

lori wrote:

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I read on the other blog by Karly that she had to hire the attorney because he had left TC in Riverside and he didnt want to go to prison so the attorney was to get him into another program because he just walked out on TC. A big no no with the state!
So it wasn't to get him out of TC like reported.

You are wrong Lori. The report is correct, he WAS in TC, the attorney was needed so that TC wouldn't pull any crap and give a bad report, as they felt told me personally "anyone can have the gift of speaking in tongues, he's just rebellious and doesn't want it!" No need to tell the whole thing again. Trying to find flaws to discredit the story doesn't change a thing. Attacking and picking apart everyone's reports of abuse does not make them all liars.

14TCM wrote:

<quoted text>
Im just wondering CL.lets just say things had been different for your son.Lets just say that he had completed the program and like some people have posted here,the TC program changed his life. What if he had come home to you a different man.What if he was persueing a higher education-instead of just a high?If he had retured from TC with a mindset to serve the Lord,to change his life,change his friends,get married and have a family, and then followed thru with that,and you never again had to worry about seeing him on drugs,in jail or prison,or worse yet,dead.If TC had "fixed" your son,would you still call it brainwashing? Would you tell some mother who's child is lost in a world of drug abuse that she should stay away from TC because its an awful place?It may not of worked for you son,and we have only heard your side of it--but that doesnt mean it wont work for someone else. You are not angry at the program,your angry because it didnt work.And I can understand that.I hope that your son finds something that will work and I wish him success.

If he were a "brain-washed" religious fanatic, but happy and sober, I would be happy for him. BUT I would NOT call reporters of abuse liars and attack them. To me, that's not love. I've attended some beautiful Catholic funerals, but just because they've been spiritual doesn't automatically make all the people who have reported abuse liars. Thank-you for your good thoughts of success. He IS sober and doing very well now.

Cherokee lady wrote:

<quoted text>If he were a "brain-washed" religious fanatic, but happy and sober, I would be happy for him. BUT I would NOT call reporters of abuse liars and attack them. To me, that's not love. I've attended some beautiful Catholic funerals, but just because they've been spiritual doesn't automatically make all the people who have reported abuse liars. Thank-you for your good thoughts of success. He IS sober and doing very well now.

I don't think anyone is calling you or anyone else that reports abuse from TC on this site a liar CL. I just think that alot of people question what you call abuse. There are parents who call a spanking at school abuse--never hurt me and I got several.I feel that you sent your son to a place he really wasnt ready for and he wasn't receptive to the rules or regulations--so he bucked the system and left. If one place was so bad why did he go to another? You said he was at 2 locations?I have talked to a counselor that helps people get into TC and she tells me that if they drop out it isnt 2 months before they want to "try it again". Most are not even looking at at Jail term vs, teen Challenge.If it's that bad,why in the world would they want to return? Addicts who have been able to get away with murder generally don't like to be in a place( TC) where that sort of thing just doesn't fly. TC deals with addicts and their antics all day long-Im sure they do or say things that maybe they should'nt.But are you going to so you have never become frustrated with your son and done the same thing? If you haven't give me your address so I can send you the mother of the year award, or should that be the liar of the year award? You or MK have never answered the question as to why the two of you have never pressd charges and went to the media ? I think it's about time you both did.And please don't use "the paper" you signed as an excuse!

14TCM wrote:

<quoted text>
I don't think anyone is calling you or anyone else that reports abuse from TC on this site a liar CL. I just think that alot of people question what you call abuse. There are parents who call a spanking at school abuse--never hurt me and I got several.I feel that you sent your son to a place he really wasnt ready for and he wasn't receptive to the rules or regulations--so he bucked the system and left. If one place was so bad why did he go to another? You said he was at 2 locations?I have talked to a counselor that helps people get into TC and she tells me that if they drop out it isnt 2 months before they want to "try it again". Most are not even looking at at Jail term vs, teen Challenge.If it's that bad,why in the world would they want to return? Addicts who have been able to get away with murder generally don't like to be in a place( TC) where that sort of thing just doesn't fly. TC deals with addicts and their antics all day long-Im sure they do or say things that maybe they should'nt.But are you going to so you have never become frustrated with your son and done the same thing? If you haven't give me your address so I can send you the mother of the year award, or should that be the liar of the year award? You or MK have never answered the question as to why the two of you have never pressd charges and went to the media ? I think it's about time you both did.And please don't use "the paper" you signed as an excuse!

I personally believe that when enough people report unscrupulous practices,(and abuse) there is hope that the organization being reported will take a look at it's practices and attempt an improvement. Hopefully it will bring a positive change. Staying mum, in my opinion, is not healthy.(there are lots of other people reporting abuse.) As far as your catty remarks about sending me "mother of year award", I feel it is indicative of the TC staff (some of them, not all) mentality that many have dealt with . Maybe YOU are a staff member, you sure sound like one. There is an induction phase at Shafter, and then you're moved to Riverside. Thus the 2 locations.(I'm surprised that you are ignorant of this. But since TC isn't regulated, perhaps there are many variations at different locations. A redundant point, already made through-out this thread. Thought I'd reiterate it, in case you missed it.) ANYWAY, I have learned a lot from this forum. One is this: I'd rather be in a room with a bunch of atheists than you so-called Christians. At least atheists have open minds, and definitely show more love than what I've seen on here....(and I DO believe in God). I agree with the statement a few posts above: religion breeds hate.

Cherokee lady wrote:

<quoted text>You are wrong Lori. The report is correct, he WAS in TC, the attorney was needed so that TC wouldn't pull any crap and give a bad report, as they felt told me personally "anyone can have the gift of speaking in tongues, he's just rebellious and doesn't want it!" No need to tell the whole thing again. Trying to find flaws to discredit the story doesn't change a thing. Attacking and picking apart everyone's reports of abuse does not make them all liars.

CL I called no one a liar and I'm not picking anything apart, I'm just confused because the story is changing all the time so what do you expect us to believe?
I know of no one who has ever been kicked out of TC for not speaking in Tongues and really find that hard to believe. It is a gift but not all will want it and the AG believes that also, so whats up?
The cry of abuse has already been dicredited but rebellion of authority has and that goes along with the addict life style. If as much effort was put into helping others as their is in bashing a program that is not for everyone someone could be saved..

lori wrote:

<quoted text>
CL I called no one a liar and I'm not picking anything apart, I'm just confused because the story is changing all the time so what do you expect us to believe?
I know of no one who has ever been kicked out of TC for not speaking in Tongues and really find that hard to believe. It is a gift but not all will want it and the AG believes that also, so whats up?
The cry of abuse has already been dicredited but rebellion of authority has and that goes along with the addict life style. If as much effort was put into helping others as their is in bashing a program that is not for everyone someone could be saved..

My story does NOT keep changing. It is too long to keep repeating to people like you who constantly try to undermine.(If you really want the whole story, do some research.) The staff found out my son requested a program change, promised him that he would be put in prison by them, as my son's request to them was "spitting in the face of Jesus". The bus incident. Then the counselor lied to me, then he told me my son could be "speaking tongues if he really wanted to". A long story.(You probably read it all, but I suspect that you just want to pick parts of it to support you agenda, namely discrediting its validity.) There are many more stories that you can read at various web-sites. Their "cries of abuse" along with many others are NOT discredited. When you try to share with close-minded people, it's the same thing over and over again. I'm done. The truth will prevail. My story is just one of many. Good luck trying to "discredit" them all.

Cherokee lady wrote:

<quoted text>I personally believe that when enough people report unscrupulous practices,(and abuse) there is hope that the organization being reported will take a look at it's practices and attempt an improvement. Hopefully it will bring a positive change. Staying mum, in my opinion, is not healthy.(there are lots of other people reporting abuse.) As far as your catty remarks about sending me "mother of year award", I feel it is indicative of the TC staff (some of them, not all) mentality that many have dealt with . Maybe YOU are a staff member, you sure sound like one. There is an induction phase at Shafter, and then you're moved to Riverside. Thus the 2 locations.(I'm surprised that you are ignorant of this. But since TC isn't regulated, perhaps there are many variations at different locations. A redundant point, already made through-out this thread. Thought I'd reiterate it, in case you missed it.) ANYWAY, I have learned a lot from this forum. One is this: I'd rather be in a room with a bunch of atheists than you so-called Christians. At least atheists have open minds, and definitely show more love than what I've seen on here....(and I DO believe in God). I agree with the statement a few posts above: religion breeds hate.

No Dear Im not TC staff but I would not have a problem in being one.You are so fired up about anyone who doesn't agree with you not being a Christian and say that they don't have any love for others.Alot of us have opened our eyes to the way that the addicts in our life act.Im not sure you have done that.You STILL have not answered the question as to why,if your son was so horribly mistreated that you haven't gone to the media or filed a lawsuit,you and MK skate around that question everytime. Lets see you really do something and go before the media with your story.Could it be that you are worried about being hit with a counter suit or slander suit?I know that if my child were abused in any way I would move heaven and earth to see justice done,and I would not just hide behind my computer and throw stones. If you think Im being less than a Christian,think it.Im just sick of hearing people complain and run down ANY program that is tying to help people that need it,while they sit on their butts and do nothing themselves. TC has been helping addicts for over 40 years.Maybe they do get alot of people from jails--but don't those people need help??? Anyone who has ever dealt with an addicted person knows that they can drive you to the edge.Well TC staff deals with a hundred addicts all day long.I say GOD bless their little hearts!!!!They give them everything they need free of charge for a year. So tell me,what are you doing to help them?

The point of all this is that there seem to be MANY people who have issues with Teen Challenge! So- instead of attacking and picking apart one person, you should be taking her and all the others seriously and you should be wondering why the majority of the Teen Challenge programs aren't state licenced and why Teen Challenge posts that they have such high success rates when they are using statistics that were taken 39 years ago!

This was posted over on the Investigating Teen Challenge Web Forum at http://wwf.fornits.com/viewforum.php...

"It is also a FACT that the VERY high drop-out rate for Teen Challenge is tremendous and it is ALSO a FACT that Teen Challenge is bragging about statistics that are from 1975, which was 32 years ago! Those statistics were done on Teen Challenge graduates from 1968, which was 39 years ago!!! Out of those 186 people, a total of 143 people dropped out of the Teen Challenge program!!! Read: http://teenchallengecult.blogspot.com/2007/02... "

Cameron wrote:

The point of all this is that there seem to be MANY people who have issues with Teen Challenge! So- instead of attacking and picking apart one person, you should be taking her and all the others seriously and you should be wondering why the majority of the Teen Challenge programs aren't state licenced and why Teen Challenge posts that they have such high success rates when they are using statistics that were taken 39 years ago!
This was posted over on the Investigating Teen Challenge Web Forum at http://wwf.fornits.com/viewforum.php...
"It is also a FACT that the VERY high drop-out rate for Teen Challenge is tremendous and it is ALSO a FACT that Teen Challenge is bragging about statistics that are from 1975, which was 32 years ago! Those statistics were done on Teen Challenge graduates from 1968, which was 39 years ago!!! Out of those 186 people, a total of 143 people dropped out of the Teen Challenge program!!! Read: http://teenchallengecult.blogspot.com/2007/02... "

It is also a fact that there are millons more of people strung out on drugs than every before so that all by its self will raise the drop out rate...(Its free so more people will enter) Cold Turkey is not easy unless your ready to change your life.....
Also isent it fact that the web sites you are posting are done by everyday people that have an issue with tc. More facts are needed for me because I know what God did through TC for my family.... So it is very hard to sit and read this stuff... I know and everyone else knows that in every situation there can always be a really bad thing happen... And I don't doubt that, but why say the whole bunch at TC is bad because of a few... Most of the staff that have been found being power happy are gone so why keep all this up......

In the February 14, 2005 issue of Dissident Voice, journalist Amy Sullivan wrote in "Faith, Fabrications, and Fantasy" that "Teen Challenge's much ballyhooed 86 percent rehabilitation rate falls apart under examination -- the number doesn't include those who dropped out of Teen Challenge and relies on a disturbingly small sample of those graduates who self-reported whether they had remained sober, significantly tilting the results."

Why would it include the people that dropped out of the program?? I think they should do a study on how many people succeeded who went in without a court order - because they WANTED to change, not because they HAD to change to escape prison or jail... It just makes me sick to read a lot of this stuff, as my husband wasn't in any kind of trouble whatsoever, he WANTED to change - & we didn't qualify for any kind of assistance, & paid $5700 for the 60 day extended care program.

I don't think you can call it "brainwashing" or a "cult" either... It says right on the application that this is a Christian program, & each student will be required to participate in Bible Studies, Chapel, etc. If someone didn't want to participate in those kinds of Christian activities, then why go there? Go to jail then - & make more room at TC for the people that WANT to be there!

Also, just because someone doesn't agree with you - that doesn't make them a close-minded person. Are the people who are on here bashing TC over & over open-minded people? Doesn't sound like it to me. I can't stand when people bash Christians for their beliefs, but if we bash others' beliefs, we're either close-minded or intolerant.

I do agree that there are different opinions on what abuse is, & that is what the real issue is here. What you make think is abuse, I may think is not. And I do find it sketchy that the authorities were never involved with this, nor the media. I'm not saying that in your opinion you didn't think your son was being abused, or brain-washed or whatever - but if someone else's family member went through that, they may not have called it abuse.

In every situation there are good & bad people, & every single person on earth is a sinner, so I don't like all of the generalizing going on about TC supporters - the bashers of TC sound like they think their better than the supporters just as much as you claim the other way around.

Michael Kincheloe wrote:

Tammy doesn't want to hear facts; she's got her nose three-to-four inches up Teen Challenge's ass. This explains why she can't see what many of the rest of us do, and, with her nose in that location, she'll never be able to wake up and smell the coffee.
Ignorance is bliss, and you'll never find a better example than Tammy.

For you and Cherokee Lady....I will pray. New TC centers are going up everyday and being renovated to house more and more people with real problems and with a serious determination to get off of drugs and alcohol. BUT if you expect it to be easy and you really do not care if you get off of drugs or not and you are only appeasing your family - than yes - listen to this man. But if you are done with ruining your life and your families lives because of drugs and alcohol - and you want help - and you have no issues with God or hearing the word of God- than go to a Teen Challenge.

Have a blessed life Michael.

Actually, I plan to sin well and often, but thanks for the prayer and the nice words.

Michael Kincheloe wrote:

Actually, I plan to sin well and often, but thanks for the prayer and the nice words.

I think the TC supporters' point is made with your comment.

Michael Kincheloe wrote:

Actually, I plan to sin well and often, but thanks for the prayer and the nice words.

Well that should tell everyone the reason you were not successful with a Christian based program Michael.There is nothing wrong with TC its you that has the problem.You went there with a mind set of free loading off TC to keep your butt out of jail.Of course they couldn't help you.That is the same mind set alot of TC drop outs have--they don't want help,they still think they have it all together though their life is a mess.You say in a round about way that you have a problem with God himself.How did you expect to get anything from a Christian program?You were there taking up space ,when someone who might have really been helped could have been there in your place.I have opened my home to several young people who were addicts and even bought one a car to try to help him get a job and get his life toghether.The ones I have tried to help have lied to me,stolen from me and sponged off me.I was trying to help 19 and 20 year olds who's parents had tossed them out on the street because they were fed up with them.I soon learned you cannot help someone who doesnt want to be helped.All those that I have tried to help have the mindset that they are the victims of everyone around them and nothing is their fault.I fed ,clothed and bought a car for a 19 year old kid who's parents were in prison and he was on the street,and he turned around and robbed me blind.His excuse was"I wouldnt have done it if you had helped me"! So I know first hand what TC deals with on a daily bases.TC may have a high drop out rate I don't know,but with the addicts I have dealt with I can understand that because most want something for nothing and don't want to put forth any effort to help themselves.MK admitts that he wants nothing to do with God and then whines because a faith based program was not successful for him. If Tc had a problem with you,I can see why with a mindset like that.TC supporters are called un Christian-like because we don't agree with TC bashers.But we just know that if you want help,you can find it and if you don't you wont. By the way CL and MK skated around my media and lawsuit question AGAIN!!!!!!!!!That says it all.Go on 20/20 and make some accusations if you truely have any!

One more thing.I recently learned that 2 of the the people I mentioned in the above post had been jailed and entered TC,they both dropped out.Their reasons?
1)I don't want to work and not get paid for it(although TC supports them while they are there)
2) I don't want to have to get up that early.
3)TC expects to much of me (heaven forbid!!!)
4)I want to do as I please
AND
5)There are two many rules!! I can't handle that.

TC expects alot from a student who doesnt want to give anything.That's the way most addicts are.The ones who are successful,are the ones who really want to change and will do whatever it takes to do that.The ones who don't have that mindset are just not ready for the help TC offers.

13TEM, I was sober for five years and four months after I completed the Salvation Army's program in San Diego. It's Christian-based, so your argument goes down in flames. But the S.A. is normal Christianity, not whack-job Pentecostalism that uses garbage like tongues and laying on of hands. Have you ever seen an anti-Salvation Army site? Didn't think so.