Utah custody fight complicated by tribal law

TaxTaxTax wrote:

159 comments so far. Not one mentions the other 50 million aborted kids who have no one fighting over them!

Because that's not what we're talking about! Start doing somthing for the children having who have nobody to take care of them or are getting hurt, and maybe people will start listening to your absolutist tunnel vision babble.

I just hope in all of this someone is making absolute sure that this poor baby has everything he needs. He's got a tough row to hoe.

Funny, last word was referring to a garden utensil used to remove weeds. Guess it's censored.

TaxTaxTAx...actually there is a lot of people who stand up for aborted children, and besides...that's a little "off-topic" don't you think? Why would we mention that in thread about Talon Larson and ICWA?

Kidnapping and a mom that ASKED a family to raise her child is a little different Jake.

Jake wrote:

<quoted text>
Disrupted placements are not common, but they are not unheard of either.
There is a reason that a woman cannot sign over her parental rights before her child is born. She may feel quite differently once she sees her baby.
There are a lot of reasons this placement never should have occurred, but a huge one is that Natasha changed her mind before the TPR paperwork was signed, and she was coerced by the agency into signing anyway. The Larsons were notified of other issues with the placement shortly thereafter (lack of consent from the father, ICWA issues), and they tried to prolong the placement by going to court. If anyone is at fault here, it is the agency and the Larsons.

Well, she should have thought about about what she would feel after seeing her baby. Maybe she should have thought about it before she put him up for adoption and picked a dang family! She did a whole lot more than just signed a paper. She flew to UTAH to meet them and for them to be a part of the experience. It is a very big deal, so she should have put more thought into it. Instead, she didn't. Her fault. SHE put him up for adoption. SHE signed the papers. No one can coerce you into doing something like that, and if that is true, then she is one weak soul. How can someone talk you into signing a paper to GIVE UP YOUR BABY? And it doesn't matter anyways. SHE SIGNED IT. And it is her fault she didn't get the fathers consent. She did all of this. The Larson's are completely innocent in all of this. All they did was agree to an adoption. If I were in their position, I would fight too. You better believe it. TALON was ripped from their family in complete unfairness and total dishonesty. I have absolutely no sympathy for her whatsoever.

Susan wrote:

Jake, you are so right on!
Most of you people are simply blind to the law, and the facts.
This baby is not a piece of meat that the Larsens can "claim" to own, even if they "love" this baby.
Faith is a powerful thing. And sadly, the Larsens put their faith in a private adoption agency whose job is to make money. There. I said it.
I pray that the Larsens MOVE ON. This is not their baby. It NEVER was their baby. This adoption has horrible warning signs all over it. Maybe they could have, I don't know, looked into adopting one of the tens of thousands of little ones in FOSTER CARE???? But I forget, this is the day of paying for what you want, if you're wealthy enough. And I assume the Larsens were hardly working-class!
Our great country's laws exist, sometimes, to protect the most unsympathetic individuals. And an impoverished, American Indian, probably unstable woman is just BEGGING to be taken advantage of.
I say, "Hooray!" Destino is back in his rightful community, surrounded by his family, his siblings, and his tribal heritage.
And no non-Indian person is EVER going to understand what that means.
I am speaking as a proud parent and auntie!
My sympathy to the Larsens, truly, but get some professional and spiritual help and move on.

As someone who is familiar with tribal heritage, family, and such, I STILL disagree with what happened to the Larsens! I have NATIVE AMERICAN heritage and I'm familiar with my tribe's culture. But sometimes a child's welfare comes first, even before the tribe. I would rather this child be with the Larsens than "surrounded by his (drug addicted) family". This "mother" you speak of who "deserves" her child back is nothing of the sort. She was an INCUBATOR, and a horrible, drug addicted one at that! The only love she showed TALON was putting him up for adoption and picking the Larsen's to be his PARENTS. I hope Talon is able to end up with his RIGHTFUL parents, the ones who were with him from day one, the ones who took care of him while his little body struggled with withdrawals.

You tell them to get over it. Fine. I urge you to put yourself in their position. You've been trying to get pregnant for years, but you find out you are infertile. All you've ever wanted to be was a mother. So, you get on the waiting list for adoption, which includes taking classes, lots of money, and years of patiently waiting for someone to decide that you are "fit" enough to be a parent. Then you get to hold that precious life you've been yearning for for YEARS. You instantly bond with this precious gift from God. You are finally a mother. You wake up in the middle of the night to feed this child, you hold him, you care for him, you play "peek-a-boo" and you watch as he grows before your eyes. You've sacrificed for years to finally get him, and then one day, months later, someone comes and tears him from your arms. I HIGHLY doubt you'd shrug your shoulders and turn around. You'd FIGHT like hell for YOUR child.

chyncha09 wrote:

Well, she should have thought about about what she would feel after seeing her baby. Maybe she should have thought about it before she put him up for adoption and picked a dang family! She did a whole lot more than just signed a paper. She flew to UTAH to meet them and for them to be a part of the experience. It is a very big deal, so she should have put more thought into it. Instead, she didn't. Her fault.

Again, this is not the first time a woman has changed her mind after giving birth, and it won't be the last. The law understands that some women will feel differently once the baby is born. That's why there are waiting periods before signing the papers, and in some states, revocation periods.

You cannot conclude that women who intend to place, and change their mind, did not put a lot of thought into their decision. All you can conclude is that they changed their mind.

Go to any reputable site for adoptive parents, and they will skin you alive for suggesting that a woman who makes an adoption plan, then fails to follow through, is a bad person.

SHE put him up for adoption. SHE signed the papers. No one can coerce you into doing something like that, and if that is true, then she is one weak soul. How can someone talk you into signing a paper to GIVE UP YOUR BABY? And it doesn't matter anyways. SHE SIGNED IT.

Heather Larson's own blog says that Natasha changed her mind and didn't want to sign the papers, and the agency told her that if she didn't, she would lose her other children. Sounds like coercion to me.

And it is her fault she didn't get the fathers consent.

Nope. It is the agency's job to get the consent of the father in placements where it is legally required. If the Larsons have a beef about the father situation, it is with their agency, not Destino's mother or father.

By the by, even if they weren't married, Destino's father had rights. If they were "openly" living together, he was clearly providing support and acknowledging paternity. That means under Utah law, he had to be served notice of the birth, and waive his rights as a father.

She did all of this. The Larson's are completely innocent in all of this. All they did was agree to an adoption. If I were in their position, I would fight too. You better believe it. TALON was ripped from their family in complete unfairness and total dishonesty.

They can fight until the end of time. The state of Utah doesn't have jurisdiction in this case. The tribe does. And I rather doubt they feel terribly inclined to hand that jurisdiction back over to Utah.

There are lots of reputable adoption agencies in Utah. Perhaps the Larsons should cut their losses and try again through one of them.

Jake wrote:

<quoted text>
Again, this is not the first time a woman has changed her mind after giving birth, and it won't be the last. The law understands that some women will feel differently once the baby is born. That's why there are waiting periods before signing the papers, and in some states, revocation periods.
You cannot conclude that women who intend to place, and change their mind, did not put a lot of thought into their decision. All you can conclude is that they changed their mind.
Go to any reputable site for adoptive parents, and they will skin you alive for suggesting that a woman who makes an adoption plan, then fails to follow through, is a bad person.
<quoted text>
Heather Larson's own blog says that Natasha changed her mind and didn't want to sign the papers, and the agency told her that if she didn't, she would lose her other children. Sounds like coercion to me.
<quoted text>
Nope. It is the agency's job to get the consent of the father in placements where it is legally required. If the Larsons have a beef about the father situation, it is with their agency, not Destino's mother or father.
By the by, even if they weren't married, Destino's father had rights. If they were "openly" living together, he was clearly providing support and acknowledging paternity. That means under Utah law, he had to be served notice of the birth, and waive his rights as a father.
<quoted text>
They can fight until the end of time. The state of Utah doesn't have jurisdiction in this case. The tribe does. And I rather doubt they feel terribly inclined to hand that jurisdiction back over to Utah.
There are lots of reputable adoption agencies in Utah. Perhaps the Larsons should cut their losses and try again through one of them.

I don't know where you pull some of your information from, but for the sake of others Please post factual information.

Thanks

Jake, do you have children?

chyncha09 wrote:

Jake, do you have children?

No. I am child-free by choice.

Jake wrote:

<quoted text>
No. I am child-free by choice.

Then you have NO understanding or comprehension of what is going on. Until you've experienced parenthood, you have no room to judge that the Larsons are fighting for TALON, their child that they've cared for since the day he was born.

Well said Neutral one. Jake can't possibly understand.

Well said neutral one. There have been a few before in this forum who have mentioned it too!

"Then you have NO understanding or comprehension of what is going on. Until you've experienced parenthood, you have no room to judge that the Larsons are fighting for TALON, their child that they've cared for since the day he was born."

I agree 100%

neutral one wrote:

Then you have NO understanding or comprehension of what is going on. Until you've experienced parenthood, you have no room to judge that the Larsons are fighting for TALON, their child that they've cared for since the day he was born.

I see. So by your logic, since I've never been an astronaut, I am not entitled to an opinion about the space program. Since I have never had an abortion, I am not entitled to an opinion about reproductive rights. Since I have never ridden a bull, I am not entitled to an opinion about rodeo.

You do realize how silly that sounds, right?

If people like you are indicative of the Larsons' supporters and friends, Destino is more fortunate than I realized to be out of that situation.

Jake wrote:

<quoted text>
I see. So by your logic, since I've never been an astronaut, I am not entitled to an opinion about the space program. Since I have never had an abortion, I am not entitled to an opinion about reproductive rights. Since I have never ridden a bull, I am not entitled to an opinion about rodeo.
You do realize how silly that sounds, right?
If people like you are indicative of the Larsons' supporters and friends, Destino is more fortunate than I realized to be out of that situation.

I understand what you are saying, you are entitled to your opinion. This is a public thread that anyone can join. It just so happens that all of us are interested in this. But the context of the subject is COMPLETELY different. You can have an opinion about this subject, and no one is telling you that you can't, at least I'm not. I don't know about everyone else on here, but what I am trying to say is that you can have your opinions, and now I understand why you do have the opinions that you do. You couldn't possibly understand what they are going through because you don't have kids, and don't want kids, therefore, you will never understand what they are going through. If you did want kids at all, you would have a little idea about what they are going though, but you don't. We are talking about taking a life into your lives, falling in love with them, and have them taken away. Those are different issues. You couldn't possibly know that love, because you don't want it. If someone were to take my little boy away from me, and keep in mind, he is only 5 months old. I would be absolutely and utterly devastated. Not to mention, I didn't even want a kid when I got pregnant. I can't even imagine what it would be like after trying and trying and trying to have a baby, then someone tells you that you are infertile. Then you finally get a chance when someone picks you to adopt their child, then they take him away.

Jake wrote:

<quoted text>
I see. So by your logic, since I've never been an astronaut, I am not entitled to an opinion about the space program. Since I have never had an abortion, I am not entitled to an opinion about reproductive rights. Since I have never ridden a bull, I am not entitled to an opinion about rodeo.
You do realize how silly that sounds, right?
If people like you are indicative of the Larsons' supporters and friends, Destino is more fortunate than I realized to be out of that situation.

I never said you couldn't have an opinion. I'm just saying you are being way too judgmental of the Larsons. You and someone else I can't remember has mentioned that they "just need to get over it". Well, take the person you care about most in this world and then have them ripped from your arms after being told you'd get to be together forever and see how fast you "get over it".

Again, you'd rather TALON be in a drug infested environment or lost in the system than with the people who have loved and cared for him since day one? No wonder this country is so messed up! The rights of the selfish, unreliable parents are put before the well-being of the child! No wonder kids are so screwed up these days...no one cares for them...

Jake you and I have been sharing opinions on this thread for awhile now. Not once have I said you are not entitled to your opinion. I do know that there is no way you have the right to judge the Larsons until you have walked a mile in their shoes. Since, that will never happen, because you have chosen to be child-free your opinion and judgments mean very little. You will never know not even a wee bit what it's like to be Heather Larson. To have a baby that you love and who loves you and to share that special mother child bond with. To exchange loving glances and little coos and giggles and care for and love a little person so deeply and to have them ripped away from your grasp and be taunted with phone calls that you will never see the child again. So sad!! No one should be put through this hell!! Are you understanding somewhat where we are coming from Jake?
The Larsons have done no wrong here. There is nothing wrong with taking in a little boy and growing and bonding with him when his mother put him up for adoption. Let's not forget the Larsons never choose to adopt Talon, but Natasha choose them to raise and adopt Talon. It was Natasha who choose the Larsons to adopt Talon. It is the love that the Larsons have for Talon that keep them fighting for him. They have been there for him since day one when his little body was fighting the effects of drug withdrawals. They were the ones there for him when he awoke and needed changing and feedings. They were there when he needed to be cuddle and nurtured. They are the ones who Talon should be with. They provided Talon with a loving home environment and were rasing him as their own. They wanted to learn of Talon's cultural and heritage and wanted to teach Talon of his culture and heritage. When we look at where Talon has been compared to where he is now, it's horrible. He could have been in a loving home raised by a family who love and deeply care for his well being, and now he's just another child in the system.
I have worked in the Native child and family services field, I know what it's like and it's sickening. In most cases there is a shortage of quality foster homes and children are placed where ever they can be with the goal in mind of being reunited with family. Since there are no to little programs in place to prepare and help the parents for this it NEVER happens and the child remains in the system. Or, the child is reunited with family and is never checked on again until there is another child protection complaint. Now Jake can you see what is happening here? Neither Talon or the Larsons asked for this hell to be brought upon them. Until you have walked a mile in Heather Larson's shoes... your opinion and judgments mean very little. I find that some of the information you have been posting is false and misleading. Please keep your comments factual.

Buttercup..you put into perfect words, what I've been trying to say, without being too successful. Your post brought me to tears. You got it EXACTLY right! I wish Jake could open her heart and try to see the situation for what it really is.

Susan wrote:

Jake, you are so right on!
Most of you people are simply blind to the law, and the facts.
This baby is not a piece of meat that the Larsens can "claim" to own, even if they "love" this baby.
Faith is a powerful thing. And sadly, the Larsens put their faith in a private adoption agency whose job is to make money. There. I said it.
I pray that the Larsens MOVE ON. This is not their baby. It NEVER was their baby. This adoption has horrible warning signs all over it. Maybe they could have, I don't know, looked into adopting one of the tens of thousands of little ones in FOSTER CARE???? But I forget, this is the day of paying for what you want, if you're wealthy enough. And I assume the Larsens were hardly working-class!
Our great country's laws exist, sometimes, to protect the most unsympathetic individuals. And an impoverished, American Indian, probably unstable woman is just BEGGING to be taken advantage of.
I say, "Hooray!" Destino is back in his rightful community, surrounded by his family, his siblings, and his tribal heritage.
And no non-Indian person is EVER going to understand what that means.
I am speaking as a proud parent and auntie!
My sympathy to the Larsens, truly, but get some professional and spiritual help and move on.

Susan, you and many other's on here do not understand what happened. The birth mother ripped off the LDS church for six months, and then ripped off the Larson's some more, and then ripped out their hearts to boot. We are talking about in excess of $50,000. This all started as a con game, and the baby was the pawn. No one understands that this is not about heritage, or any other Native American issue...it is about a con job gone bad, plain and simple. The only reason that the birth mother changed her mind is because the "tribe" opposed the adoption. The tribe is just showing their stuff in abusing ICWA laws as usual...and care nothing about this child or the birth mother for that matter. You and that freak, Jake, just do not get this whole thing...it is not about a birth mother changing her mind...so give it up. Go argue for someone who really did get taken advantage of, if you can find her. Take your cause to another forum, we are getting sick of hearing from you. And Jake, you are a friggin psycho case...probably borderline.

I have been looking over this board and what I've come to conclude is; Jake is just on here to get a rise out of everyone. Jake is missing something in her life that gets satisfied temporarily by being cold, mean and shocking. Does anyone know the status of Talon and if the Larsons are any closer to getting their son back? This whole situation is beyond morally wrong! If the tribe wants to come out of this being respected, they should do the right thing. If things stay the way they are, they have represented their tribe in a horrible way and have left a bad taste in many mouths. I hope they have a change of heart and do the right thing. They made their point already, and it's horrible.