Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

No Mercy wrote:

<quoted text>
WOW...you're some half-*ss Jew!
You're exactly what I was addressing when I was pointing out the lack of spiritual Jews now.
You had better get your butt back into reading and studying your Torah and get wised up before you come in here and give us a dressing down about Christianity's interest in your own well being. You are what we call a backslidden, or even an unrepentent, sinner...not a believer.
So technically, you're NOT a Jew, except for ethnicity, and even thats not legitimate if you're not from Israel..

Name calling - what a lovely example of Christian love you just exhibited. I had a religious upbringing and have not renounced my faith, I just choose not to be a practicing Jew at this time in my life. What does being from Israel have to do with being Jewish? If that's the case, who were all those people that Hitler murdered?
If not believing that I need to be "saved" makes me a sinner, then so be it. I'm not worried about it, why are you?

I love those who are against "proselytizing." They say, "Leave me alone; if I want to hear your views, I will seek you out and ask you."
And then, they go right out and..."proselytize" for their favorite cause. The Sierra Club, the Public Interest Research Group, the NAACP, Al Gore and the Global Warming movement, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, and the rest all "proselytize."
Of course, they do not call it that, because "proselytize" has a very negative connotation. They use terms such as: canvasing, informing, raising awareness, inviting, and recruiting, which are synonyms for proselytizing.
But if religious people dare to try to exercise the same civil liberties that these critics insist on for themselves, these very same champions of human rights, have not one bit of tolerance for them canvassing, informing, inviting, or recruting, aka:proselytizing.
My Dean of Students in college said it very well: "Everyone has a "bible" that he or she is pounding. Some have a religious bible, some have a political bible, some have an economic bible, but everyone has a "bible" that he or she believes in and wants to share with others."
That is the cornerstone of democracy: everyone is free to share his or her beliefs with others and to invite them to join in those beliefs.
What democracy forbids is the use of threats, intimidation, or physical force to make others listen or join in one's beliefs, or to stop others from sharing their beliefs.
That means that the guilty party here is the individual who sent a terrorist letter bomb to hurt someone who was saying things that he or she did not want to hear.
The Messianic Jews were peacefully sharing their convictions, and they were criminally assaulted with a deadly weapon in the form of a letter bomb.
"Freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom of speech, and the right to peaceably assemble," mean that at some time each one of us is going to hear or see something with which we disagree with or even find offensive. The answer is to walk away and give others the same freedom that we would like them to give us.
Messianic Jews are free to share their beliefs, and others are free to listen or to walk away. But no one is free to use the "Bin Laden method" of civil discourse to settle an ideological disagreement.

Marc wrote:

I love those who are against "proselytizing." They say, "Leave me alone; if I want to hear your views, I will seek you out and ask you."
And then, they go right out and..."proselytize" for their favorite cause. The Sierra Club, the Public Interest Research Group, the NAACP, Al Gore and the Global Warming movement, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, and the rest all "proselytize."
Of course, they do not call it that, because "proselytize" has a very negative connotation. They use terms such as: canvasing, informing, raising awareness, inviting, and recruiting, which are synonyms for proselytizing.
But if religious people dare to try to exercise the same civil liberties that these critics insist on for themselves, these very same champions of human rights, have not one bit of tolerance for them canvassing, informing, inviting, or recruting, aka:proselytizing.
My Dean of Students in college said it very well: "Everyone has a "bible" that he or she is pounding. Some have a religious bible, some have a political bible, some have an economic bible, but everyone has a "bible" that he or she believes in and wants to share with others."
That is the cornerstone of democracy: everyone is free to share his or her beliefs with others and to invite them to join in those beliefs.
What democracy forbids is the use of threats, intimidation, or physical force to make others listen or join in one's beliefs, or to stop others from sharing their beliefs.
That means that the guilty party here is the individual who sent a terrorist letter bomb to hurt someone who was saying things that he or she did not want to hear.
The Messianic Jews were peacefully sharing their convictions, and they were criminally assaulted with a deadly weapon in the form of a letter bomb.
"Freedom of religion, freedom of the press, freedom of speech, and the right to peaceably assemble," mean that at some time each one of us is going to hear or see something with which we disagree with or even find offensive. The answer is to walk away and give others the same freedom that we would like them to give us.
Messianic Jews are free to share their beliefs, and others are free to listen or to walk away. But no one is free to use the "Bin Laden method" of civil discourse to settle an ideological disagreement.

absolutely beautiful post....

and to Barbara...you didn't answer my query...

you called Jesus a "teacher"...

He did not, by His words, allow you that option...

by His words He was either who He said He was...the begotten Son of God Almighty, or He was deranged, or He was the Devil. Teachers at that time tended not to say things that would get them nailed to crosses!!!

Let's at LEAST get the HISTORICAL facts straight Barbie, even if you don't believe in a God so great and loving that He would beget a
Son and have Him tortured and killed for YOUR sins...and mine, and all others'.

Barbara wrote:

<quoted text>
Name calling - what a lovely example of Christian love you just exhibited. I had a religious upbringing and have not renounced my faith, I just choose not to be a practicing Jew at this time in my life. What does being from Israel have to do with being Jewish? If that's the case, who were all those people that Hitler murdered?
If not believing that I need to be "saved" makes me a sinner, then so be it. I'm not worried about it, why are you?

No one is saved by ethnicity.
Just because someone is born into a Jewish family
does not grant them salvation by birth. There are
two births, physical and spiritual. Unless you are
born again you will not enter the kingdom of God.
You must be born again by the very words of Jesus.
Your argument is not with all these people it is with
Jesus. The Jewish faith does not teach that all men
are sinners. Instead it claims that man is inherently
good and that your goodness will get you to heaven
someday. That is a falsehood according to the Bible.
Even read your own Jewish Bible, the Torah, and you
will find verses telling you that your own righteousness is as filthy rags and such. Just got on
this forum but looks like the Christians on here are
trying to get through to you. Please at least try and open yourself to hear the truth they are trying to show you. Ask God to show you. You need Jesus.

To Barbara wrote:

<quoted text>... You need Jesus.

I had a Jesus -- immigration deported him.

Can you send me another?

Reality wrote:

<quoted text>
absolutely beautiful post....
and to Barbara...you didn't answer my query...
you called Jesus a "teacher"...
He did not, by His words, allow you that option...
by His words He was either who He said He was...the begotten Son of God Almighty, or He was deranged, or He was the Devil. Teachers at that time tended not to say things that would get them nailed to crosses!!!
Let's at LEAST get the HISTORICAL facts straight Barbie, even if you don't believe in a God so great and loving that He would beget a
Son and have Him tortured and killed for YOUR sins...and mine, and all others'.

Your argument is based entirely on what you have been told about Jesus by people who weren't there or who may have had other motives. You have no facts - just faith. I reject your faith. If you keep it to yourself, I will not insult you by insisting I am right and you are wrong as you are doing to me. That has been the bone of contention between Christians and J*ws for centuries. You just keep insisting that we need to be saved by believing the same thing you do.

Barbara wrote:

<quoted text>
The Jewish people (all) reject your messiah. Personally, I don't make the connection you have with the quote from Daniel - but I'm not a Bible scholar. Besides, when a message is so cryptic it needs to be studied to be understood, then it is quite possible that the meaning that was determined, is wrong.
You probably wouldn't like my theory about Paul and as there is no proof of it, I won't even mention it.
BTW, I'm not waiting for anyone and I'm not looking to have my "sins" removed. I don't believe in a God that punishes us for being human.
IMO, the story of Adam and Eve was just a story that was an attempt to explain where we came from and why things were as they were to early people who had no other explanation.

Trust me, not all Jewish people have rejected the Messiah, I have seen the change and joy in the lives of Jews who have come to know their Messiah. The truth is if it were not for Messiah Yeshua, no Gentile would ever serve the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob on such an enormous scale. No other "messiah" in history has done that.
The scripture I quoted was in simple in English and straight forward, how was it cryptic?
The fact is despite unbelief in Messiah Yeshua on the part of some Jews, gentiles all over the world have come to serve the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Yeshua/Jesus has fulfilled that promise to Abraham Genesis 22:18
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Which other Messiah in History has caused so many nations to serve God? Ahh well, all the Gentiles will just have to continue enjoying the blessings, the freedom from drug addictions, porn addictions, the new life from sin, the healings and protection. Especially here, many believers in Jesus would have been dead already if they were not protected.
You don't believe in a God that punishes us for being human? How can a person say such a thing?
How is it 'human' to rape little children, blowing up inocent people, cut the throats of the elderly, oppress the poor and so on? well we should applaud hitler for being a very outstanding human then. Well, I believe in a God that punishes for these things.
Well, if you do not believe in creation or Genesis, then chances are you may believe in the monkey theory. Well, I will stick to being created in the image of God than some monkey. Much love.

To Barbara wrote:

<quoted text>No one is saved by ethnicity.
Just because someone is born into a Jewish family
does not grant them salvation by birth. There are
two births, physical and spiritual. Unless you are
born again you will not enter the kingdom of God.
You must be born again by the very words of Jesus.
Your argument is not with all these people it is with
Jesus. The Jewish faith does not teach that all men
are sinners. Instead it claims that man is inherently
good and that your goodness will get you to heaven
someday. That is a falsehood according to the Bible.
Even read your own Jewish Bible, the Torah, and you
will find verses telling you that your own righteousness is as filthy rags and such. Just got on
this forum but looks like the Christians on here are
trying to get through to you. Please at least try and open yourself to hear the truth they are trying to show you. Ask God to show you. You need Jesus.

I'm not looking for salvation. I have no interest in Jesus. Why can't you people stop proseletyzing? I would become an atheist before I would ever become a Christian.

Barbara wrote:

<quoted text>
Your argument is based entirely on what you have been told about Jesus by people who weren't there or who may have had other motives. You have no facts - just faith. I reject your faith. If you keep it to yourself, I will not insult you by insisting I am right and you are wrong as you are doing to me. That has been the bone of contention between Christians and J*ws for centuries. You just keep insisting that we need to be saved by believing the same thing you do.

The same argument can be made about Judisim. Faith is always irrational... that is the point. Someone belives or does not. There is never a middle ground. Messianic jew, Orthodox, Christian or MUslum.

Barbara wrote:

<quoted text>
Jesus is not rejected as a J*w. He is rejected as the messiah.
Christians have been claiming he's coming back soon for a long time. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting.

Matthew 24
1And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
[This was fulfilled in 70 AD)
3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
[There so many who claim to be jesus today, simple search this out on google]
6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
[Turn on the BBC, CNN etc]
7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
[Again, turn on the BBC, CNN, etc]
8All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
[In which country are Christians not hated? Many are being locked up simply to mention the name of Jesus, Messianic Jews are rejected by their own]
10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
[Just look for yourself]
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
37But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
At this point I would sure hate to be wrong about Jesus/Yeshua. It would be a very sad for many who have rejected Him. Much love to all and peace.

Yosef wrote:

<quoted text>
Trust me, not all Jewish people have rejected the Messiah, I have seen the change and joy in the lives of Jews who have come to know their Messiah. The truth is if it were not for Messiah Yeshua, no Gentile would ever serve the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob on such an enormous scale. No other "messiah" in history has done that.
The scripture I quoted was in simple in English and straight forward, how was it cryptic?
The fact is despite unbelief in Messiah Yeshua on the part of some Jews, gentiles all over the world have come to serve the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Yeshua/Jesus has fulfilled that promise to Abraham Genesis 22:18
And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
Which other Messiah in History has caused so many nations to serve God? Ahh well, all the Gentiles will just have to continue enjoying the blessings, the freedom from drug addictions, porn addictions, the new life from sin, the healings and protection. Especially here, many believers in Jesus would have been dead already if they were not protected.
You don't believe in a God that punishes us for being human? How can a person say such a thing?
How is it 'human' to rape little children, blowing up inocent people, cut the throats of the elderly, oppress the poor and so on? well we should applaud hitler for being a very outstanding human then. Well, I believe in a God that punishes for these things.
Well, if you do not believe in creation or Genesis, then chances are you may believe in the monkey theory. Well, I will stick to being created in the image of God than some monkey. Much love.

Give it a rest. We've already had the discussion that any J*w that accepts Jesus is no longer Jewish, no matter how you like to represent yourself. To me, it is a false representation.

Being human refers to people being less than perfect. If God created us, then He made us that way and shouldn't expect perfection. There are minor imperfections and major ones. The major ones you refer to need to be punished in the here and now in order to protect innocent people. I prefer not to depend on, and wait for God to punish them. Besides, Islamic terrorists truly believe they have God's blessing. History is replete with violence undertaken in God's name. Remember the Inquisition and the Crusades?

You also show your ignorance of natural selection. No one has ever claimed that humans are descended from monkeys. The theory claims that humans and apes are both descended from a common ancestor. They developed simultaneously.
We are "cousins" of the apes, not "children" of them. When you study the similarities between the species, there is much overlap in form and behavior. If God created humans in His image, why are the apes so similar?

Well, first of all, Jesus ain't G-d. Never was. Never will be.
Second of all, it's a shame that Israel theoretically "persecutes" Messianic Christians in Israel (they ain't Jewish). Live and let live...
Thirdly... A big Boo Hoo. Get over it Messianics. If you want to go and rip some Jewish soul from G-d into your Meshugga religion in the Land of Israel in the only Jewish State on the entire planet - and they tell you to go suck eggs, tough patooties. Go peddle your obsessions elsewhere. Like... oh, how about Saudi Arabia... or Iran... or Pakistan?

Barbara wrote:

<quoted text>
Give it a rest. We've already had the discussion that any J*w that accepts Jesus is no longer Jewish, no matter how you like to represent yourself. To me, it is a false representation.
Being human refers to people being less than perfect. If God created us, then He made us that way and shouldn't expect perfection. There are minor imperfections and major ones. The major ones you refer to need to be punished in the here and now in order to protect innocent people. I prefer not to depend on, and wait for God to punish them. Besides, Islamic terrorists truly believe they have God's blessing. History is replete with violence undertaken in God's name. Remember the Inquisition and the Crusades?
You also show your ignorance of natural selection. No one has ever claimed that humans are descended from monkeys. The theory claims that humans and apes are both descended from a common ancestor. They developed simultaneously.
We are "cousins" of the apes, not "children" of them. When you study the similarities between the species, there is much overlap in form and behavior. If God created humans in His image, why are the apes so similar?

Well, do your thing, no believer in Jesus will force the Gospel down your throat. Well, Yeshua has done so much in my life that I can't but admit that He is who He says He is. I was never born believing in Yeshua, infact growing up as a Rastafarian meant rejecting all of that.

I am glad the day that Yeshua looked at a messed up person like me and turned my life around.

My country is known for reggae, white sandy beaches, the fastes men in the world etc but there is also another side, that most young men are caught up in, but because of Jesus many young men my age have given up a life criminality.

Believe what you want to believe, one less killer who begins serving his community is better than one who terrorizes it. That is my reality here.

I am really saddened, especially for the Jews who don't believe. Just know Barbara, my aim was not offend you or anything but to really extend the love that Yeshua has given to me, that's all nothing else.

Yosef wrote:

<quoted text>
Well, do your thing, no believer in Jesus will force the Gospel down your throat. Well, Yeshua has done so much in my life that I can't but admit that He is who He says He is. I was never born believing in Yeshua, infact growing up as a Rastafarian meant rejecting all of that.
I am glad the day that Yeshua looked at a messed up person like me and turned my life around.
My country is known for reggae, white sandy beaches, the fastes men in the world etc but there is also another side, that most young men are caught up in, but because of Jesus many young men my age have given up a life criminality.
Believe what you want to believe, one less killer who begins serving his community is better than one who terrorizes it. That is my reality here.
I am really saddened, especially for the Jews who don't believe. Just know Barbara, my aim was not offend you or anything but to really extend the love that Yeshua has given to me, that's all nothing else.

You HAVE been a blessing. Maybe it wasn't your intended audience but brother you have been a blessing. As for Barbara....I am Jewish. I mother is Jewish. My father is Jewish. My cousins and Aunts and Uncles are all jewish. I believe Jesus is the Messiah and I am still Jewish and there isn't a damn thing you can do about it.

Barbara wrote:

<quoted text>
Name calling - what a lovely example of Christian love you just exhibited. I had a religious upbringing and have not renounced my faith, I just choose not to be a practicing Jew at this time in my life. What does being from Israel have to do with being Jewish? If that's the case, who were all those people that Hitler murdered?
If not believing that I need to be "saved" makes me a sinner, then so be it. I'm not worried about it, why are you?

I didn't name call at all...what do you think that the rabbis called unrepentent sinners who did not practice and apply their faith at the time of Solomon's Temple?
They kicked them out of the tribes, that's what they did or worse, if their sin was worse. There were cities of refuge if you needed to be heard before a judge and in most cases even when you won your case for your offense, the offense itself was so disruptive to the community where it happened that you could never return back to it.
Gee, they must have had more passion and seriousness for the Law than you do, huh?!

BTW...your failure to practice and live your faith IS A renunciation of it in FACT, not words!

No Mercy wrote:

BTW...your failure to practice and live your faith IS A renunciation of it in FACT, not words!

nope. Still Jewish. Nothing you say will ever make me less Jewish. Frustrating, isn't it?

Barbara wrote:

<quoted text>
Your argument is based entirely on what you have been told about Jesus by people who weren't there or who may have had other motives. You have no facts - just faith. I reject your faith. If you keep it to yourself, I will not insult you by insisting I am right and you are wrong as you are doing to me. That has been the bone of contention between Christians and J*ws for centuries. You just keep insisting that we need to be saved by believing the same thing you do.

well....with that logic Barbara, do we REALLY know that Napolean was last fighting on Elba? Or that he tucked his hand in his coat occasionally?

I mean, what you're being TOLD about Napolean is by people who weren't there.

Oh wait...that's called HISTORY. These things called PEOPLE, who were THERE, with Napolean, and with Jesus, actually wrote down the things they said and did...

It actually happened at some other places before TV Barbara. Heck, how do know our Constitution is REALLY our Constitution? I didn't see it on MTV???

The SCRIBES in ancient times were nearly as revered as royalty, for their jobs were to perfectly and most accurately RECORD what was done and said. And language at that time Barbara was a tad more mosaic and esoteric (google them), with many words having multiple shades, meanings, and contexts.

Reality wrote:

<quoted text>
well....with that logic Barbara, do we REALLY know that Napolean was last fighting on Elba? Or that he tucked his hand in his coat occasionally?
I mean, what you're being TOLD about Napolean is by people who weren't there.
Oh wait...that's called HISTORY. These things called PEOPLE, who were THERE, with Napolean, and with Jesus, actually wrote down the things they said and did...
It actually happened at some other places before TV Barbara. Heck, how do know our Constitution is REALLY our Constitution? I didn't see it on MTV???
The SCRIBES in ancient times were nearly as revered as royalty, for their jobs were to perfectly and most accurately RECORD what was done and said. And language at that time Barbara was a tad more mosaic and esoteric (google them), with many words having multiple shades, meanings, and contexts.

What Jesus said and did was not recorded until long after his death. Historical records from that time period are fragmented, and the authors are not really known and may have had their own motives for what they wrote. Then of course, there is also the problem of accurate translation.
As far as more recent history, the evidence and record keeping is easier to find and understand, but even so we probably don't know as many details about them, as you claim to know about Jesus.

No Mercy wrote:

<quoted text>
I didn't name call at all...what do you think that the rabbis called unrepentent sinners who did not practice and apply their faith at the time of Solomon's Temple?
They kicked them out of the tribes, that's what they did or worse, if their sin was worse. There were cities of refuge if you needed to be heard before a judge and in most cases even when you won your case for your offense, the offense itself was so disruptive to the community where it happened that you could never return back to it.
Gee, they must have had more passion and seriousness for the Law than you do, huh?!

"WOW...you're some half-*ss **** "
This isn't name calling? You should go and repent your sin of lying.
You are as hung up on Biblical law, as some Muslims are on Sharia law. I try to lead my life in such a way that I don't harm another person. If that's not good enough for your God, then that is your problem, not mine. I've led my life in such a way that I feel no need to be saved from myself.