Is Doctrinal Perfection Essential?

Posted in the Martinsville Forum

Comments

Showing posts 1 - 20 of74
< prev page
|
Go to last page| Jump to page:

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#1
Mar 6, 2012
 
When conversing on various “religious” sites, most disagreements hinge on doctrinal issues. There seems to be no agreement upon every issue by anyone. In an attempt to find common ground, some take the position that doctrine is secondary and something we can disregard. Others take a position that doctrine does matter and condemn all who disagree with their supposed perfect understanding of all doctrines. In my opinion, both views are extreme and both place one on a high horse of hypocrisy. Having posted my disagreements with both views, I now return to the thread heading: Is Doctrinal Perfection Essential?

To answer in the affirmative means there is no wiggle room; no room for any error at all. To answer in the negative means there is plenty of wiggle room for error. If I take the affirmative, this can lead to prideful arrogance. If I take the negative, it can lead to acceptance of false doctrine. So, how do we tackle this and be biblically sound?

Perhaps there are essential and nonessential doctrines. All will agree that a new babe in Christ lacks many doctrinal positions thus may hold to error yet we all would agree that such a person is still saved yet is required to study to show himself approved. Even through study such a person may hold to doctrinal error. Is there a timeline for the Christian to grasp all doctrine? No two people will grow at the same rate. So, it seems that there MUST be nonessential doctrines, meaning God grades Christians on the curve. Just maybe, God looks at Jesus righteousness and not ours. Honestly, if God looks at each individual, who can really stand before God and claim to have mastered every doctrine without error? If God looks at the Christian for doctrinal perfect, who can stand?

On the flip side, doesn’t doctrinal error equate to sin? Shall we continue in sin that grace abounds? I do not want to send the message that doctrine doesn’t matter because it obviously does. If a person is shown to be in error yet they refuse to repent, will this person remain saved? Not just this, but what is an essential “doctrine?” Is playing music with singing an essential doctrinal issue? How about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? How about Marriage, Divorce, Remarriage? There is disagreements on each of these, even within the Church of Christ.

My position is that we must be in Christ by the prescribed essential doctrines of Scripture before we can be accountable for growth in other doctrines. In other words, there is not many plans of salvation. There is one door in which we all enter i.e., Jesus Christ. This means we enter on what Jesus taught and what His apostles taught. Like it or not, water baptism is included as an entry into this door. To dismiss this and opt for a sinners prayer or some other man-made plan to salvation keeps one on the outside. This, in my opinion, is an essential doctrine to become a Christian. One must obey the gospel by the prescribed plan of God. Doctrines that follow salvation are those in which we grow in grace.

Thoughts? Input?
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#2
Mar 6, 2012
 

Judged:

1

1

JesusCreed wrote:
When conversing on various “religious” sites, most disagreements hinge on doctrinal issues. There seems to be no agreement upon every issue by anyone. In an attempt to find common ground, some take the position that doctrine is secondary and something we can disregard. Others take a position that doctrine does matter and condemn all who disagree with their supposed perfect understanding of all doctrines. In my opinion, both views are extreme and both place one on a high horse of hypocrisy. Having posted my disagreements with both views, I now return to the thread heading: Is Doctrinal Perfection Essential?
To answer in the affirmative means there is no wiggle room; no room for any error at all. To answer in the negative means there is plenty of wiggle room for error. If I take the affirmative, this can lead to prideful arrogance. If I take the negative, it can lead to acceptance of false doctrine. So, how do we tackle this and be biblically sound?
Perhaps there are essential and nonessential doctrines. All will agree that a new babe in Christ lacks many doctrinal positions thus may hold to error yet we all would agree that such a person is still saved yet is required to study to show himself approved. Even through study such a person may hold to doctrinal error. Is there a timeline for the Christian to grasp all doctrine? No two people will grow at the same rate. So, it seems that there MUST be nonessential doctrines, meaning God grades Christians on the curve. Just maybe, God looks at Jesus righteousness and not ours. Honestly, if God looks at each individual, who can really stand before God and claim to have mastered every doctrine without error? If God looks at the Christian for doctrinal perfect, who can stand?
On the flip side, doesn’t doctrinal error equate to sin? Shall we continue in sin that grace abounds? I do not want to send the message that doctrine doesn’t matter because it obviously does. If a person is shown to be in error yet they refuse to repent, will this person remain saved? Not just this, but what is an essential “doctrine?” Is playing music with singing an essential doctrinal issue? How about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? How about Marriage, Divorce, Remarriage? There is disagreements on each of these, even within the Church of Christ.
My position is that we must be in Christ by the prescribed essential doctrines of Scripture before we can be accountable for growth in other doctrines. In other words, there is not many plans of salvation. There is one door in which we all enter i.e., Jesus Christ. This means we enter on what Jesus taught and what His apostles taught. Like it or not, water baptism is included as an entry into this door. To dismiss this and opt for a sinners prayer or some other man-made plan to salvation keeps one on the outside. This, in my opinion, is an essential doctrine to become a Christian. One must obey the gospel by the prescribed plan of God. Doctrines that follow salvation are those in which we grow in grace.
Thoughts? Input?
I am with you except for water baptism being essential. My beef there is that there are many who may not get the opportunity to be water baptized before they die. I do believe that those who have the opportunity to be water baptized and still refuse are walking on thin ice.

There are lots of things which fall into the category of heresy. And I am greatly bothered by those who promote gay churches-etc...

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#3
Mar 6, 2012
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I am with you except for water baptism being essential. My beef there is that there are many who may not get the opportunity to be water baptized before they die. I do believe that those who have the opportunity to be water baptized and still refuse are walking on thin ice.
There are lots of things which fall into the category of heresy. And I am greatly bothered by those who promote gay churches-etc...
I have a cousin { lesbian } who attends a Church like this. She and “what she calls her wife” attend this Church and are accepted as Christians. This is a clear violation of Scripture yet they believe God accepts them this way. The bible clearly condemn this. But, what about less obvious things going on in the name of “Church”. If a Pastor demands Tithing, is not this anti-biblical for the Church? What about speaking in gibberish, I mean tongues? The Bible seems to clearly teach this to be actual real languages, not the chaos going on today in some Churches. If gay Churches are wrong thus not of God due to their anti-biblical doctrine, does God pass on other issues? I guess I’m asking for a clear line that distinguishes essential from nonessential doctrines. Clearly if something is called sin the Bible e.g., being gay, then that is obviously condemned of God and such who practice this will not enter Heaven. But, what about things that are not actually called sin? Like tithing, speaking in tongues? Perhaps something is sin if it’s not authorized. If so, this means those practicing tithing and speaking in tongues are just as guilty as those who attend gay Churches.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#4
Mar 6, 2012
 
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
I have a cousin { lesbian } who attends a Church like this. She and “what she calls her wife” attend this Church and are accepted as Christians. This is a clear violation of Scripture yet they believe God accepts them this way. The bible clearly condemn this. But, what about less obvious things going on in the name of “Church”. If a Pastor demands Tithing, is not this anti-biblical for the Church? What about speaking in gibberish, I mean tongues? The Bible seems to clearly teach this to be actual real languages, not the chaos going on today in some Churches. If gay Churches are wrong thus not of God due to their anti-biblical doctrine, does God pass on other issues? I guess I’m asking for a clear line that distinguishes essential from nonessential doctrines. Clearly if something is called sin the Bible e.g., being gay, then that is obviously condemned of God and such who practice this will not enter Heaven. But, what about things that are not actually called sin? Like tithing, speaking in tongues? Perhaps something is sin if it’s not authorized. If so, this means those practicing tithing and speaking in tongues are just as guilty as those who attend gay Churches.
To be clear, no one is perfect or has perfect doctrine. The closest we can get to pure doctrine is practicing the doctrine of grace. We can never unite under law, especially when there are so many views of what is required. Justification by faith removes the guilt and condemnation brought about by legalism. For example we do not have to become a Jew to please God.

However there are many things which are difficult for christians to have a complete agreement on and usually there is a right and a wrong. Some so called christians are so far from truth there seems to be no reconciliation available. We can discuss this from now on till Jesus comes and probably never completely agree.

I have little problem with tithing or tongues pro or con but to require it for fellowship is wrong. Same way with non instruments in worship. The issue is what comes from the heart. I guess that is why we have denominations:(
qwerty

Martinsville, VA

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#5
Mar 6, 2012
 

Judged:

1

JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
I have a cousin { lesbian } who attends a Church like this.
What a coincidence, "testing the spirits" has a gay cousin too.
"You make a valid point. I have a cousin who attends one of these "churches." Thinking outside of the box often means outside of scripture."
Looks like Randy going under another name again.hhhhhmmmmmm
post #88

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/martinsville-...

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#6
Mar 6, 2012
 
qwerty wrote:
<quoted text>
What a coincidence, "testing the spirits" has a gay cousin too.
"You make a valid point. I have a cousin who attends one of these "churches." Thinking outside of the box often means outside of scripture."
Looks like Randy going under another name again.hhhhhmmmmmm
post #88
http://www.topix.com/forum/city/martinsville-...
You didnt uncover anything. I made it clear I used this name before. Forgot password for the other. Not sure what your point is...

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#7
Mar 6, 2012
 
qwerty wrote:
<quoted text>
What a coincidence, "testing the spirits" has a gay cousin too.
"You make a valid point. I have a cousin who attends one of these "churches." Thinking outside of the box often means outside of scripture."
Looks like Randy going under another name again.hhhhhmmmmmm
post #88
http://www.topix.com/forum/city/martinsville-...
How many names have you used? hhmm. Kettle calling the pot black.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#8
Mar 6, 2012
 
qwerty wrote:
<quoted text>
What a coincidence, "testing the spirits" has a gay cousin too.
"You make a valid point. I have a cousin who attends one of these "churches." Thinking outside of the box often means outside of scripture."
Looks like Randy going under another name again.hhhhhmmmmmm
post #88
http://www.topix.com/forum/city/martinsville-...
...and I used my name yesterday, did you happen to notice that? lol. Now address the thread. What did you say your name was? Oh thats right, you didnt. Too funny. Anywho, enough making me your scape goat. I'd rather you provide some input on the thread.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#9
Mar 6, 2012
 
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
I have a cousin { lesbian } who attends a Church like this. She and “what she calls her wife” attend this Church and are accepted as Christians. This is a clear violation of Scripture yet they believe God accepts them this way. The bible clearly condemn this. But, what about less obvious things going on in the name of “Church”. If a Pastor demands Tithing, is not this anti-biblical for the Church? What about speaking in gibberish, I mean tongues? The Bible seems to clearly teach this to be actual real languages, not the chaos going on today in some Churches. If gay Churches are wrong thus not of God due to their anti-biblical doctrine, does God pass on other issues? I guess I’m asking for a clear line that distinguishes essential from nonessential doctrines. Clearly if something is called sin the Bible e.g., being gay, then that is obviously condemned of God and such who practice this will not enter Heaven. But, what about things that are not actually called sin? Like tithing, speaking in tongues? Perhaps something is sin if it’s not authorized. If so, this means those practicing tithing and speaking in tongues are just as guilty as those who attend gay Churches.
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are:[i](AJ)immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry,(AK)sorcery, enmities,(AL)strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger,(AM)disputes, dissensions,[j](AN)factions, 21 envying,(AO)drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not (AP)inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But (AQ)the fruit of the Spirit is (AR)love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness,(AS)self-control; against such things (AT)there is no law. 24 Now those who [k]belong to (AU)Christ Jesus have (AV)crucified the flesh with its passions and (AW)desires.

9 Or (K)do you not know that the unrighteous will not (L)inherit the kingdom of God?(M)Do not be deceived; (N)neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [f]effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will (O)inherit the kingdom of God. 11 (P)Such were some of you; but you were (Q)washed, but you were (R)sanctified, but you were (S)justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#10
Mar 6, 2012
 
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are:[i](AJ)immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry,(AK)sorcery, enmities,(AL)strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger,(AM)disputes, dissensions,[j](AN)factions, 21 envying,(AO)drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not (AP)inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But (AQ)the fruit of the Spirit is (AR)love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness,(AS)self-control; against such things (AT)there is no law. 24 Now those who [k]belong to (AU)Christ Jesus have (AV)crucified the flesh with its passions and (AW)desires.
9 Or (K)do you not know that the unrighteous will not (L)inherit the kingdom of God?(M)Do not be deceived; (N)neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [f]effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will (O)inherit the kingdom of God. 11 (P)Such were some of you; but you were (Q)washed, but you were (R)sanctified, but you were (S)justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
I don’t think you will get any disagreement with the verses you posted. Could you add, tithe payers, tongue speakers, music in worship, Lords Supper on another day than EVERY Sunday to the list you have here? Will they inherit the kingdom of God? Are these essential doctrines? Doctrines that damn one to hell if misunderstood?
MrT

Moneta, VA

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#11
Mar 6, 2012
 
I believe that if the apostles themselves walked into every single congregation out there they would barely recognize what is going on.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#12
Mar 6, 2012
 
MrT wrote:
I believe that if the apostles themselves walked into every single congregation out there they would barely recognize what is going on.
You’re probably right. I know of one “Church” who recently had a comedy show, a rock band, a wrap band, and drama service. If the Apostles were to walk in and see that, would they think it was TRUE WORSHIP? So, this begs the question. Is there a pattern of worship? And, if there be one, is it sinful to not follow the pattern of worship? In other words, are acts of worship essential doctrines?
MrT

Moneta, VA

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#13
Mar 6, 2012
 

Judged:

1

JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
You’re probably right. I know of one “Church” who recently had a comedy show, a rock band, a wrap band, and drama service. If the Apostles were to walk in and see that, would they think it was TRUE WORSHIP? So, this begs the question. Is there a pattern of worship? And, if there be one, is it sinful to not follow the pattern of worship? In other words, are acts of worship essential doctrines?
I am saying though that I do not think there is any congregation that they would recognize as being what they had, that includes cofC and all denominations.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#14
Mar 6, 2012
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I am with you except for water baptism being essential. My beef there is that there are many who may not get the opportunity to be water baptized before they die. I do believe that those who have the opportunity to be water baptized and still refuse are walking on thin ice.
There are lots of things which fall into the category of heresy. And I am greatly bothered by those who promote gay churches-etc...
I don't believe there are "many" who may not have the opportunity to be baptized, unless there is willful disobedience to the word of God. I contend that in the majority of cases of salvation, that if a person wants to be baptized, they could indeed be baptized, somewhere, by someone, at some point. I think there are very, very few cases where people could genuinely say "I couldn't", and it be acceptable to God.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#15
Mar 6, 2012
 

Judged:

1

MrT wrote:
<quoted text>
I am saying though that I do not think there is any congregation that they would recognize as being what they had, that includes cofC and all denominations.
Completely agreed. And I would add that the Apostles wouldn't even GO to the "church buildings" to even look for worship, but would go from home to home, like they did in the New Testament.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#16
Mar 6, 2012
 
SeekingWanderer wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't believe there are "many" who may not have the opportunity to be baptized, unless there is willful disobedience to the word of God. I contend that in the majority of cases of salvation, that if a person wants to be baptized, they could indeed be baptized, somewhere, by someone, at some point. I think there are very, very few cases where people could genuinely say "I couldn't", and it be acceptable to God.
If there was only one person you knew who did not have the opportunity to be water baptized and that one person was your son or daughter, do you think God would make an exception?

If there is only one exception that God overlooks, then he must not require it for salvation or he would be a respecter of persons.

My belief is that water baptism is an ordnance not a rite of passage. Just like the Lords supper, communion is for believers only and it also speaks to the work of of Christ on the cross. I don't see where anyone partook of the supper before faith came. The same is true for water baptism it is for believers only. If one is required for rite of passage into the church both should be.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#17
Mar 6, 2012
 

Judged:

1

Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
If there was only one person you knew who did not have the opportunity to be water baptized and that one person was your son or daughter, do you think God would make an exception?
If there is only one exception that God overlooks, then he must not require it for salvation or he would be a respecter of persons.
My belief is that water baptism is an ordnance not a rite of passage. Just like the Lords supper, communion is for believers only and it also speaks to the work of of Christ on the cross. I don't see where anyone partook of the supper before faith came. The same is true for water baptism it is for believers only. If one is required for rite of passage into the church both should be.
It wouldn't matter to me personally who it was; my opinion makes no difference in the grand scheme of God's plan, and His word.

And I don't think God is going to "overlook" any exceptions, but that God's grace is sufficient for those very, very few who may not have the opportunity to be baptized, no matter how much they want to be. There is a huge difference between being a "respecter of persons" and God's grace.

Baptism is not a rite of passage or an ordnance, but a clear command of Jesus, God's Son, Peter, Paul, Luke, and God only knows how many others. It's a clear command. Nothing arbitrary about it at all.
Bobby

Fort Worth, TX

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#18
Mar 6, 2012
 
SeekingWanderer wrote:
<quoted text>
It wouldn't matter to me personally who it was; my opinion makes no difference in the grand scheme of God's plan, and His word.
And I don't think God is going to "overlook" any exceptions, but that God's grace is sufficient for those very, very few who may not have the opportunity to be baptized, no matter how much they want to be. There is a huge difference between being a "respecter of persons" and God's grace.
Baptism is not a rite of passage or an ordnance, but a clear command of Jesus, God's Son, Peter, Paul, Luke, and God only knows how many others. It's a clear command. Nothing arbitrary about it at all.
I am not questioning it being a command but it's purpose. If the purpose is for salvation then you cannot have any exceptions. This is why baptismal regenerationist fight so hard to reject any exceptions including the thief on the cross. Which position do you actually take?

This is also the reason they do not like to talk about Spirit baptism. They like to connect spirit baptism with off the wall stuff and make light of the fact that we are regenerated by the spirit. This is mentioned in Titus 3:5 and several other places Can you see that?

“Regina A Steele Marrs”

Since: Jun 11

Big Rock,Va

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#19
Mar 6, 2012
 
JesusCreed wrote:
<quoted text>
I have a cousin { lesbian } who attends a Church like this. She and “what she calls her wife” attend this Church and are accepted as Christians. This is a clear violation of Scripture yet they believe God accepts them this way. The bible clearly condemn this. But, what about less obvious things going on in the name of “Church”. If a Pastor demands Tithing, is not this anti-biblical for the Church? What about speaking in gibberish, I mean tongues? The Bible seems to clearly teach this to be actual real languages, not the chaos going on today in some Churches. If gay Churches are wrong thus not of God due to their anti-biblical doctrine, does God pass on other issues? I guess I’m asking for a clear line that distinguishes essential from nonessential doctrines. Clearly if something is called sin the Bible e.g., being gay, then that is obviously condemned of God and such who practice this will not enter Heaven. But, what about things that are not actually called sin? Like tithing, speaking in tongues? Perhaps something is sin if it’s not authorized. If so, this means those practicing tithing and speaking in tongues are just as guilty as those who attend gay Churches.
Other languages...did the Apostles have the ability to speak in Greek,Roman, and any other language in the world at that time.

Seems 120 people spoke in another tonugue...was this another laguage that they never knew before.

Is speaking in tongues a sin...seems Paul spoke in tongues more then anyone. Was he sinning?

Do you think Paul expected people to help pay for his missionary journeys?

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

|
Report Abuse
|
Judge it!
|
#20
Mar 6, 2012
 
Bobby wrote:
<quoted text>
I am not questioning it being a command but it's purpose. If the purpose is for salvation then you cannot have any exceptions. This is why baptismal regenerationist fight so hard to reject any exceptions including the thief on the cross. Which position do you actually take?
This is also the reason they do not like to talk about Spirit baptism. They like to connect spirit baptism with off the wall stuff and make light of the fact that we are regenerated by the spirit. This is mentioned in Titus 3:5 and several other places Can you see that?
Exceptions were made by Jesus on several occasions, would you not agree?

I am what you might a "different Christian", as I have no allegiance to any denomination, I believe no denomination's wholly, and I forsake and condemn every single denomination on the planet. God is not the God of division. Jesus is not the Lord of division. And the Holy Spirit is not the arbiter of division. Therefore, I will not acknowledge any denomination as Godly, Biblically correct, or "the true church". The true church is the people, and I don't think there are any entire denominations that are going to be in Heaven.

Concerning the Holy Spirit and "Holy Spirit baptism", I don't know enough on the subject to make an intelligible defense at this time, so far as exactly when it stopped in the first century. I do believe it was something the Apostles had, something the Apostles passed on through the laying on of hands, something which was given on a very, very limited basis directly to certain people for a specific purpose, and something that is no longer passed in a miraculous way since we no longer have any Apostles to lay hands on people.

Tell me when this thread is updated: (Registration is not required)

Add to my Tracker Send me an email

Showing posts 1 - 20 of74
< prev page
|
Go to last page| Jump to page:
Type in your comments below
Name
(appears on your post)
Comments
Characters left: 4000

Please note by clicking on "Post Comment" you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

10 Users are viewing the Martinsville Forum right now

Search the Martinsville Forum:
Topic Updated Last By Comments
THEY ARE DISHONEST @ Pearcherfiles 1 hr Prophet of Jesus Christ 25
Johnny Robertson’s church of Christ (Feb '13) 5 hr Working for the Lord 152
I am Know It all - Dave... from Preacherfiles 6 hr WDTBS 24
Steven Haguewood vs THE WORD of KNOWLEDGE 8 hr Prophet of Jesus Christ 54
VA VA Property Tax Exemption for Elderly and Disab... (Oct '10) 19 hr Winona 1,348
MESSAGE TO Lee Parish - PREACHERFILES Tue Prophet of Jesus Christ 7
Women in COC TV shows Mon Barnsweb 2
•••

Freeze Warning for Martinsville County was issued at April 16 at 3:34PM EDT

•••
•••
•••
Martinsville Dating

more search filters

less search filters

•••

Martinsville Jobs

•••
•••
•••

Martinsville People Search

Addresses and phone numbers for FREE

•••

Personal Finance

Mortgages [ See current mortgage rates ]
•••