Is perfect obedience essential to salvation

Is perfect obedience essential to salvation! Shawn and Johnnie knows that because of human weakness we all sin (per 1 John 1:8) and thus do not perfectly obey. So, what is the objection? Johnnie himself teaches that perfect obedience is not essential to salvation, but he castigates us for saying that God will save those who imperfectly obey. Where is the consistency here?

Shawn even sides with brethren in error, seeing one of the preachers has to be wrong regarding the Indwelling of the Spirit, but he castigates us for saying that God will save those who imperfectly understand doctrinal matters. Where is the consistency here?

All of us agree that obedience to Christ is essential to salvation. The only question is, must that obedience be perfect? We all answer no. So we are all left with imperfect obedience. But when pressed on this issue, Shawn and Mr. Feet back off and do not discuss their lack of perfect obedience too much. Instead, they want to act as if they do obey perfectly, but when we push for more clarity they again acknowledge that they lack perfect obedience.

What, then, is the difference between imperfect obedience and disobedience?

What, then, is the difference between the Church of Christ having imperfect obedience and the other denominations who have imperfect obedience?

It is very obvious that there are two set of rules. After reading much of the writings from Shawn, Johnnie and Mr. Feet, it is clear that they apply this only to them because they think they are the RIGHT CHURCH. In other words, we, who are in other denominations cant have this privilege, seeing they see us as outsiders – ones who they say are not part of the Body.

They care not to discuss this subject at great length because they know that if they can excuse them self due to lack of perfection, then the same has to be for all man-kind. This scares them because this allows for other believers into the Kingdom and God forbid that they love others who love Jesus and trust Jesus.

There's progressive Bill!

How are you?

Gal. 5:6; Philip. 2:12-13; James 2:14-26.

A living faith is a working faith.

And a working faith is a saving faith.

Nothing is earned.

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Luke 1:6

[Both righteous] Both "just" or holy. This means here more than external conformity to the law. It is an honorable testimonial of their "piety" toward God.

[Walking in ...] Keeping the commandments. To WALK in the way that God commands is "to obey."

[Ordinances] Rites and customs which God had ordained or appointed. These words refer to all the duties of religion which were made known to them.

[Blameless] That is, no fault or deficiency could be found in them. They were strict, exact, punctual. Yet this, if it had been mere "external" observance, might have been no proof of piety. Paul, before his conversion, also kept the law "externally" blameless, Phil 3:6. But in the case of Zechariah and Elizabeth it was real love to God and sincere regard for his law.
(from Barnes' Notes)

Just because progressive Bill does not wish to obedient to all God's commands does not impossible to do so.

Liberals always look for loopholes.

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*correction

Just because progressive Bill does not wish to obedient to all God's commands does not mean it's impossible to do so.

Liberals always look for loopholes.

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"What, then, is the difference between the Church of Christ having imperfect obedience and the other denominations who have imperfect obedience?" Bill

That's easy. Faithful churches of Christ are TRYING HARDER (striving) to be exactly what God wants them to be according to the Scriptures. Denominations are all about being contemporary and large numbers. They are people pleasers.

I asked a Baptist pastor once if the Baptist church is the one Christ promised to established in Matt. 16:18. He said NO. I guess he ought to know.

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Trying harder?? God grades on the curve? Or did he demand PERFECTION, which Jesus came to do because we cant?

Again, nobody here is saying nor promoting disobedience. You keep twisting things in that direction when you know that I have not once said that.

Bill wrote:

Trying harder?? God grades on the curve? Or did he demand PERFECTION, which Jesus came to do because we cant?
Again, nobody here is saying nor promoting disobedience. You keep twisting things in that direction when you know that I have not once said that.

Progressive Bill, who said anything about "perfection"???

You're as bad as the evangelical preachers who see the word ALONE every time they read about FAITH in the Bible.

"Again, nobody here is saying nor promoting disobedience." Bill

YES you are. Every time you make room for pedobaptist in your theology you're promoting disobedience to God's command to be baptized. You're helping people go to hell.

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Is perfect obedience essential to salvation! Shawn and Johnnie knows that because of human weakness we all sin (per 1 John 1:8) and thus do not perfectly obey. So, what is the objection? Johnnie himself teaches that perfect obedience is not essential to salvation, but he castigates us for saying that God will save those who imperfectly obey. Where is the consistency here?

Shawn even sides with brethren in error, seeing one of the preachers has to be wrong regarding the Indwelling of the Spirit, but he castigates us for saying that God will save those who imperfectly understand doctrinal matters. Where is the consistency here?

All of us agree that obedience to Christ is essential to salvation. The only question is, must that obedience be perfect? We all answer no. So we are all left with imperfect obedience. But when pressed on this issue, Shawn and Mr. Feet back off and do not discuss their lack of perfect obedience too much. Instead, they want to act as if they do obey perfectly, but when we push for more clarity they again acknowledge that they lack perfect obedience.

What, then, is the difference between imperfect obedience and disobedience?

What, then, is the difference between the Church of Christ having imperfect obedience and the other denominations who have imperfect obedience?

It is very obvious that there are two set of rules. After reading much of the writings from Shawn, Johnnie and Mr. Feet, it is clear that they apply this only to them because they think they are the RIGHT CHURCH. In other words, we, who are in other denominations cant have this privilege, seeing they see us as outsiders – ones who they say are not part of the Body.

They care not to discuss this subject at great length because they know that if they can excuse them self due to lack of perfection, then the same has to be for all man-kind. This scares them because this allows for other believers into the Kingdom and God forbid that they love others who love Jesus and trust Jesus.

Heath, you aren’t perfectly obeying as you admitted. And others are in the same boat with you. Try hard as you wish, but if your dependence is upon your ability to obey, then you fall short with your filthy rags.

God demands one abbey perfectly and Jesus done that for us. Now we are to obey as well and when we fall we have Jesus at the right hand pleading our case before the father.

I’m sorry you rather TRY HARD or STRIVE to earn your way. It may be easier if you accept what Jesus done for you.

We agree that no man will be saved by living a perfectly sinless life (Rom. 3:23). And we agree that no man's obedience earns, merits, or deserves eternal life. So, no man will be saved without grace and faith. But having committed sin, are there things man must do, in addition to grace and faith, to receive forgiveness of sins?

We agree that the blood of Jesus is the only power that can forgive sins. Once a man has sinned, nothing he could do could make up for sin without the blood of Jesus. However, we are asking whether or not the Bible teaches that certain acts of obedience are necessary as conditions in order to benefit from the cleansing power of Jesus' blood.

Matthew 22:36-39 - The two greatest commands are to love God and love your neighbor. So, if you believe that love is essential to salvation, then you must believe that obedience to commands is essential to salvation, because love is a command that must be obeyed!

John 13:34; 15:12 - "This is my commandment, that you love one another, even as I have loved you."

Love is essential to salvation. But love is a command. Therefore, obeying commands is essential to salvation, for here is one command all agree is essential.

Matthew 22:36-39 - The two greatest commands are to love God and love your neighbor. So, if you believe that love is essential to salvation, then you must believe that obedience to commands is essential to salvation, because love is a command that must be obeyed!

John 13:34; 15:12 - "This is my commandment, that you love one another, even as I have loved you."

AMEN!

Now why would you be a LEGALIST for these commands?

The same N.T. teaches BAPTISM is essential for salvation and you'll compromise that command (Mark 16:16).

Progressive Bill is a cafeteria legalist. LOL!

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I never said anyone was a legalist for obeying God. You need to go back and read this threads again.

Nice try though. But you vant lie here and get by with it...

Never have we said to disobey. You are trying your best to twist things around and we all see your games.

The threads here speak otherwise and also show you twisting them.

Bet this would make good stuff in the next book ;)

C'mon progressive! Are you confused about once saved, always saved AND pedobaptism???

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Show me where I have promoted Once Saved Always Saved.

I know where your head is on this thinking. You keep forgetting I come from your very mindset. I once held your views. I even attacked the Baptist preachers and other denominational preachers.

The facts are you are just as broken in doctrine than those you condemn. You already sided with opposing doctrine here thus proving you are in the same boat as those you condemn.

People who leave the conservative Church have a sense of freedom because the bondage is lifted from them. They always felt insecure and felt as though they had to keep themselves saves by works.

You are suggesting one can lose his salvation due to what?? Please enlighten us Shawn. Explain this fully….PLEASE ;)

"You are suggesting one can lose his salvation due to what??" progressive Bill

I'm glad you asked!

1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Gal 5:19-21
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:4
You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace

2 Peter 2:20-22
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."

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"You are suggesting one can lose his salvation due to what??" progressive Bill

Heb 10:26-31
26 For we — willfully sinning after the receiving the full knowledge of the truth — no more for sins doth there remain a sacrifice,
27 but a certain fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery zeal, about to devour the opposers;
28 any one who did set at nought a law of Moses, apart from mercies, by two or three witnesses, doth die,
29 of how much sorer punishment shall he be counted worthy who the Son of God did trample on, and the blood of the covenant did count a common thing, in which he was sanctified, and to the Spirit of the grace did despite?
30 for we have known Him who is saying,'Vengeance [is] Mine, I will recompense, saith the Lord;' and again,'The Lord shall judge His people;'—
31 fearful [is] the falling into the hands of a living God.
YLT

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"You are suggesting one can lose his salvation due to what??" progressive Bill

John 15:1-7

"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."

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"You are suggesting one can lose his salvation due to what??" progressive Bill

Ezek 18:24
"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die."

Ezek 33:12-13
12 "Therefore you, O son of man, say to the children of your people:'The righteousness of the righteous man shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression; as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall because of it in the day that he turns from his wickedness; nor shall the righteous be able to live because of his righteousness in the day that he sins.' 13 When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die."

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"You are suggesting one can lose his salvation due to what??" progressive Bill

Gal 1:6-9
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if WE, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if ANYONE preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

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