Does Ephesians 5:19 mean that the heart is the ‘instrument’?

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Since: Dec 11

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#1 Jan 20, 2012
Some who reject musical instruments in worship contend that Eph. 5:19 is “figurative,” or “metaphorical;” however, this idea goes “begging” for any support in the Scriptures. I have heard the church of Christ say that we play upon the ‘strings of our heart.’“Strings of the heart” is not even a Bible phrase.“Singing and making melody in your heart” simply means the same thing as in other passages where something is done “in” or “with” the heart. All obedience and worship are to be “in the heart,” for this is what God’s Law requires (Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:30). We are to worship “in spirit” and “in truth”(John 4:23, 24), but this does not mean that acts of worship are eliminated. There is no example of “making melody” in the heart in the “hidden” sense, if we go by Scripture.

The words “making melody” are used in Ephesians 5:19, but “how” this is done is found in Isaiah 23:16, and it is with a musical instrument:“Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered.” Also, Amos 5:23 speaks of “the melody of thy viols,” which is also reference to a musical instrument. So if “the Bible interprets itself,” these passages show “how” to make melody – with musical instruments.

-Borrowed from Bob L. Ross
Johnny

Fredericksburg, VA

#2 Jan 20, 2012
randy maybe you could discuss with me on tv. Bob L Ross would not do it unless we paid him a weeks salary, hotel, car, expenses, and pay air time

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#3 Jan 20, 2012
Johnny wrote:
randy maybe you could discuss with me on tv. Bob L Ross would not do it unless we paid him a weeks salary, hotel, car, expenses, and pay air time
I didn't say I agree or disagree with Bob L Ross. I merely presented an argument he has made.

We seem to be just fine talking here. Perhaps you can address his comments here since we both are here already.

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#4 Jan 20, 2012
Johnny wrote:
randy maybe you could discuss with me on tv. Bob L Ross would not do it unless we paid him a weeks salary, hotel, car, expenses, and pay air time
Johnny, the debates from Bob L Ross are pretty good ( not saying he is right ) and its too bad you aren't willing to meet his request. I'm sure his request cost much less than air time on Star News has cost over the years. It would probably be a good debate...too bad it won't ever happen.
Bfrank

Martinsville, VA

#5 Jan 21, 2012
Johnny wrote:
randy maybe you could discuss with me on tv. Bob L Ross would not do it unless we paid him a weeks salary, hotel, car, expenses, and pay air time
I think that Johnny would rather give his money to Charles who said,"I don't see marriage as a necessity in todays modern times"...right Johnny? Bob Ross does make some really good points like this...
"4.“If we take instrumental music from the Old Testament, would we not also have to take animal sacrifices and everything else?”
We are authorized to use “psalms”(Eph. 5:19), not to offer animal sacrifices. Many things taught in the Old Testament are still lawful; many things which are called “patterns, figures, and shadows” were fulfilled. The Law is still “good, if a man use it lawfully”(I Timothy 1:8). But there is perhaps nothing about which there is as much confusion as the Law and its relation to New Testament teachings. This was also the case in apostolic times, and the apostles often had to address the problem. And today, we are not authorized to subtract anything from God’s Law without authority for so doing (Deut. 4:2; Matt. 5:19; Mark 7:5-13). Neither are we to add to His Law." Bob L. Ross

http://jesusiscreator.org/...
john T

Willow Grove, PA

#6 Jun 10, 2012
Psalms 150 and other passage command the use of instruments. Instruments can enhance worship amd you can worahip through your instrument. I know I have.
The Bible also commands us to worship in the Spirit, yet the Church of Christ forbids tongues. Singing in tongues to the Lord in private is very edifying. The scriptures also ask, "Does Baptism Now save You? It doesn't even though new Christians unless they accepted Christ while dying on ac cross like the repentant thief should be baptized without delay. Many churches that claim to follow the Bible really don't. I visited a Church of Christ in Pennsylvania. They were nice, but it really is sterile. God is a God of color, of music, of joy, of glasness.
Barnsweb

Copperopolis, CA

#7 Jun 11, 2012
JohnT, surely there is no sin in singing without an instrument, is there? The matter is worship of God in spirit and truth by those who do His will.

Does God accept the worship of sinners? How could He if the sins of Israel cause their worship to be a stench in His nostrils?

If the Church of Christ peachers would open their hearts and minds to what the Lord has to say, then they wouldn't require CENI to know the truth. It's dangerous to take the 'You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free' apart from the conditional verse immediately preceeding:'If you abide in My words, you are My disciples indeed.'And...you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.'

Perhaps someday soon they will realize that His truth is known by doing it, not by CENI, not by declaring false 'systems' or 'plans', but through subjection to the will of God as taught by the Son. Too bad Campbell and Stone didn't understand or grasp this fact of the faith. But is that any reason we can't today?

The fact is that if they want to sing A-Capella, that the problem is condemning falsely those who choose to use and instrument.

BUT - Many destroy and divide the Church today over casting aside the hymnals for projectors and stage bands. They think they are drawing in the younger crowd - but if they looked around them and payed attention - something quite different is going on.(not to mention the unspoken universal language of music providing mixed messages)

God is not mocked, but men mock themselves every day - perhaps two or three times on Sunday!

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#8 Jun 11, 2012
regiarc ydnar wrote:
Some who reject musical instruments in worship contend that Eph. 5:19 is “figurative,” or “metaphorical;” however, this idea goes “begging” for any support in the Scriptures. I have heard the church of Christ say that we play upon the ‘strings of our heart.’“Strings of the heart” is not even a Bible phrase.“Singing and making melody in your heart” simply means the same thing as in other passages where something is done “in” or “with” the heart. All obedience and worship are to be “in the heart,” for this is what God’s Law requires (Deut. 6:4; Mark 12:30). We are to worship “in spirit” and “in truth”(John 4:23, 24), but this does not mean that acts of worship are eliminated. There is no example of “making melody” in the heart in the “hidden” sense, if we go by Scripture.
The words “making melody” are used in Ephesians 5:19, but “how” this is done is found in Isaiah 23:16, and it is with a musical instrument:“Take an harp, go about the city, thou harlot that hast been forgotten; make sweet melody, sing many songs, that thou mayest be remembered.” Also, Amos 5:23 speaks of “the melody of thy viols,” which is also reference to a musical instrument. So if “the Bible interprets itself,” these passages show “how” to make melody – with musical instruments.
-Borrowed from Bob L. Ross
Here is the only problem with man trying to justify how man desires to worship. It does not follow the examples of the apostles teaching which were guided by God the Holy Spirit.

Man also has to realize the changes in worship that occurred during the times of the bible, from the Patriarchs to the Nation of Israel to the Christians (which is now and forever in effect) we have instructions as to how to worship.

As one old gentleman said it says to sing, and that is what the early church did even when they had a chance to use the instrument that they had been using in the past. Yet for some strange reason they now did away with that instrument and simply sang. Great observation old man.:)
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#9 Jun 11, 2012
Barnsweb wrote:
JohnT, surely there is no sin in singing without an instrument, is there? The matter is worship of God in spirit and truth by those who do His will.
Does God accept the worship of sinners? How could He if the sins of Israel cause their worship to be a stench in His nostrils?
If the Church of Christ peachers would open their hearts and minds to what the Lord has to say, then they wouldn't require CENI to know the truth. It's dangerous to take the 'You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free' apart from the conditional verse immediately preceeding:'If you abide in My words, you are My disciples indeed.'And...you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.'
Perhaps someday soon they will realize that His truth is known by doing it, not by CENI, not by declaring false 'systems' or 'plans', but through subjection to the will of God as taught by the Son. Too bad Campbell and Stone didn't understand or grasp this fact of the faith. But is that any reason we can't today?
The fact is that if they want to sing A-Capella, that the problem is condemning falsely those who choose to use and instrument.
BUT - Many destroy and divide the Church today over casting aside the hymnals for projectors and stage bands. They think they are drawing in the younger crowd - but if they looked around them and payed attention - something quite different is going on.(not to mention the unspoken universal language of music providing mixed messages)
God is not mocked, but men mock themselves every day - perhaps two or three times on Sunday!
AMEN! Excellent post.
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#10 Jun 11, 2012
Anybody ever read Psalm 87? Anybody else think this could be a prophecy about the church age, or the day of the Messiah?
Mike Conner

United States

#11 Jun 11, 2012
regiarc ydnar wrote:
<quoted text>
Johnny, the debates from Bob L Ross are pretty good ( not saying he is right ) and its too bad you aren't willing to meet his request. I'm sure his request cost much less than air time on Star News has cost over the years. It would probably be a good debate...too bad it won't ever happen.
I think it is a little ridiculous for him to have to be paid to come on and debate. I guess I can kind of see maybe some help with getting there but why does he need all that to present what he thinks is truth. And I have seen two debates with Ross and both were not very good. In the debate with Bill Jackson he really did not answer anything with scripture.
Randy

Charlottesville, VA

#12 Jun 11, 2012
Mike Conner wrote:
<quoted text>
I think it is a little ridiculous for him to have to be paid to come on and debate. I guess I can kind of see maybe some help with getting there but why does he need all that to present what he thinks is truth. And I have seen two debates with Ross and both were not very good. In the debate with Bill Jackson he really did not answer anything with scripture.
Agreed
Barnsweb

Copperopolis, CA

#13 Jun 12, 2012
Ephesians 5 from the AENT

Be therefore imitators of Elohim as beloved children. And walk in love; as the Mashiyach also has loved us and has given up himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to Elohim, for a sweet aroma. But sexual sin and all impurity and greed, do not let them be at all heard from among you, as such (denials) are not becoming of the Set Apart believers; Neither obscenities nor words of foolishness, or of division, or of falsehood, which are not useful; but instead of these, thanksgiving. For you know this; That every man who is a sexual sinner, or impure, or greedy, or a worshipper of idols has no inheritance in the Kingdom of the Mashiyach and of Elohim. Let no man deceive you with desolate words; for it is on account of these things that the wrath of Elohim comes on the children of disobedience. Therefore don't be like them. For you were up to now darkness, but now are light in our Master. Therefore, as the children of light, walk you that way. For the fruits of the light are in all goodness and righteousness and truth. And search out what is beautiful before our Master (Y'shua); And have no commerce with the works of darkness which are unfruitful, but reject them. For the things they do in secret, it is sickening even to mention. For all things are exposed and made manifest by the light; and all things that are revealed, are light. Therefore it is said:'Awake you who are asleep and arise from the dead, and the Mashiyach will illuminate you.' See therefore, that you walk with spiritual knowledge; not like the simple. But like the wise who purchase their opportunity; because the days are evil. Therefore, do not lack in understaqnding, but understand what is the will of Elohim.

(18)And don't be drunk with wine in which is rebellion; but be filled with the Spirit. And converse with yourselves in psalms and hymns; and with your hearts sing to Master YHWH in spiritual songs. And give thanks to Elohim the Father at all times for all men in the name of our Master Y'shua the Mashiyach. And be submissive one to another in the love of the Mashiyach. Wives, be submissive to your husbands as to our Master (Y'shua). Because the husband is the head of the wife, even as the Mashiyach is the head of his assembly and delivered himself up for it. That he might sanctify it and cleanse it by the washing of water and by the Word. And might constitue it a glorious assembly for himself, without blemish. It is fitting for men so to love teir wives as(they do) their own bodies. For he that loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own body; but nourishes it and rpovides for it, even as the Mashiyach (did for) the assembly. For this reason, a man should leave his father and mother and cling to his wife; and the two should be one flesh. This is a great myster; but I am speaking of the Mashiyach and of his assembly. Nevertheless, let each of you greatly so love his wife, even as himself; and let the wife revere her husband."
Barnsweb

Copperopolis, CA

#14 Jun 12, 2012
(18)And don't be drunk with wine in which is rebellion; but be filled with the Spirit.(19) And converse with yourselves in psalms and hymns; and with your hearts sing to Master YHWH in spiritual songs.

Indeed, what does it mean, that the heart is the instrument. If it isn't from the heart, it isn't a spiritual song to Master YHWH. Maybe it's conversing with ourselves, but not praise and thanksgiving to God?
New Guy

Morehead, KY

#15 Jun 12, 2012
Did anyone stop to think that if the first century church was being persecuted- it may not have been a good idea for them to start playing some kind of musical instrument and say "Hey, here we are! Come get us!" Kind of a dumb illustration, but it is a possibility.

Think BW above is on the right track. What we do, whatever we do, needs to be from the heart. And that includes singing, with or without instruments. Maybe it means we should do it "heartily".
Randy

Martinsville, VA

#16 Jun 12, 2012
Johnny wrote:
randy maybe you could discuss with me on tv.
Maybe you could discuss here ;)

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#17 Jun 13, 2012
New Guy wrote:
Did anyone stop to think that if the first century church was being persecuted- it may not have been a good idea for them to start playing some kind of musical instrument and say "Hey, here we are! Come get us!" Kind of a dumb illustration, but it is a possibility.
Think BW above is on the right track. What we do, whatever we do, needs to be from the heart. And that includes singing, with or without instruments. Maybe it means we should do it "heartily".
There is no indication to that theory either in history or in the biblical text.
Randy

Martinsville, VA

#18 Jun 13, 2012
JustChristian wrote:
<quoted text>
There is no indication to that theory either in history or in the biblical text.
I believe they ( the early church ) chose to abandon them due to their connection to the Old Testament sacrificial system.

Far as them being excluded due to Paul using the word SING doesn’t hold water either. We use the same word today and in many cases the word SING represents much more. As I am tying this I am listening SINGING on the radio. Does my usage of the word SINGING mean that its only singing involved. No. In fact they are playing instruments too. Do I need to say, I am listening to singing and music on the radio? If I ask,“did you hear that man singing on TV”….does this mean he didn’t have a band? Sorry, but that argument from silence is weak in this case given the fact that the word SING can represent more than SINGING only.

Far as THE HEART being the instrument that we use when we sing, who denies this? We should do all things with the heart; meaning with Godly intent and our whole being. Paul isn’t calling the HEART the instrument we pluck. He mere is saying when we sing, to do so with all of our being. This doesn’t exclude musical aids no more than it does song books, song leaders, pitch pipes, PA systems etc.

History does bare record that the Church didn’t use musical aids for a long time. I contend, as I stated from the onset, that they chose not to use them because of its ties to animal sacrifices. During the killing of an animal they would play music to drown out the screams of the animal being slain. After the animal died – sacrificed, the music ceased. Perhaps they drew a parallel with Jesus’ sacrifice thus put down the instruments because the sacrifice was complete.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#19 Jun 13, 2012
Randy wrote:
<quoted text>
I believe they ( the early church ) chose to abandon them due to their connection to the Old Testament sacrificial system.
Far as them being excluded due to Paul using the word SING doesn’t hold water either. We use the same word today and in many cases the word SING represents much more. As I am tying this I am listening SINGING on the radio. Does my usage of the word SINGING mean that its only singing involved. No. In fact they are playing instruments too. Do I need to say, I am listening to singing and music on the radio? If I ask,“did you hear that man singing on TV”….does this mean he didn’t have a band? Sorry, but that argument from silence is weak in this case given the fact that the word SING can represent more than SINGING only.
Far as THE HEART being the instrument that we use when we sing, who denies this? We should do all things with the heart; meaning with Godly intent and our whole being. Paul isn’t calling the HEART the instrument we pluck. He mere is saying when we sing, to do so with all of our being. This doesn’t exclude musical aids no more than it does song books, song leaders, pitch pipes, PA systems etc.
History does bare record that the Church didn’t use musical aids for a long time. I contend, as I stated from the onset, that they chose not to use them because of its ties to animal sacrifices. During the killing of an animal they would play music to drown out the screams of the animal being slain. After the animal died – sacrificed, the music ceased. Perhaps they drew a parallel with Jesus’ sacrifice thus put down the instruments because the sacrifice was complete.
The key phrase in your statement that you have to go back and rely on historical writters is "the word sing TODAY means much more" Big deal. All kinds of things mean different things today than they did when written. The word then meant sing with the mouth because that is what the historical writers said was being done. They even sang without probably up and down pitches. Yet it was with the mouth only.

So you can say what you do today but it does not mean that is the meaning back then. So you can throw that argument out.
Barnsweb

Copperopolis, CA

#20 Jun 13, 2012
And converse with yourselves in psalms and hymns; and with your hearts sing to Master YHWH in spiritual songs.

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