Advisory body against San Pedro condo plan

"The know-nothing NIMBY's have spoken - too bad they do not know the facts that an 18-unit condo uses LESS power, and results in LESS traffic than the market did."

What do you base this brilliant assessment on? Are you aware that if there were consistantly 18 families shopping at McCowans all hours of the day they never would have closed. Traffic in a Condo complex is 24 hour traffic not like a store which only has traffic during buisness hours.

Thankfully, SP has a cadre of civic minded residents motivated enough to resist the onslaught of densification that lines the pockets of developers and severely degrades the quality of life in our communities. All of you NIMBY-haters are welcome to relocate to West LA and revel in gridlock as you count your developer dollars.

how will 18 units going around 300k each generate "tremendous tax revenue" property tax wise? And what is "develope"? Is that like an antelope?

I believe the difference in total annual tax revenue between 18 condos at $300k/ea. and 4 $1Million homes is slightly more than $10,000/yr. from the condos.(1% of the assessed value used by the tax collector.) A valid point is made about parking. Where is the factual discussion or information on that very relevant issue? Policy makers should re-evaluate zoning guidelines that permit construction without sufficient off street parking for a real occupancy rate. If pressure is to be applied fairly and broadly to zoning issues, that is where the brouhaha should be focused. These ad hoc committees created to fight individual construction projects are too adversarial with too little substance behind their arguing points.

Steve wrote:

What do you base this brilliant assessment on? Are you aware that if there were consistently 18 families shopping at McCowans all hours of the day they never would have closed. Traffic in a Condo complex is 24 hour traffic not like a store which only has traffic during business hours.

Based on my experience as a civic planner and membership in the Amer. Planning Assoc. APA that indicated a medium sized market generates about 200 +trips per day while 18 condo generate between 4 to 6 trips per day per unit for a total of 72 to 108 ( Max !) trips per day for the complex. This is a 46% to 64" reduction.

As for power, being a professional engineer in the design of commercial properties, we estimate the market used a 2,500 Amp 120Y/208-Volt system while each condo would have a 200 Amp 120Y/208-Volt system plus an 800- Amp house panel for pools, common area ltg.,... for a total of 4,400-Amps, that is an increase of 76%.

Is that brilliant enough for you ??? Next time get some facts before you spout off on things you don't know the first thing about... sort of like the so called Advisory Committee which was just an anti improvement sounding board.

Steve wrote:

Traffic in a Condo complex is 24 hour traffic not like a store which only has traffic during business hours.

Continuing my professional evaluation, I am not aware if Mcgowans was a 24-hour operation as many markets are these days and don't think you know either. However if the Market is open at least 18 hours per day, 6-am - 12-am Mon-Sun; these are long hours and not to be confused with office hours (8-A - 5-P) and experience shows that trips from residential condo's between the hours of 12-midnight to 6-Am is deminimus at best; so your point is not valid.

I wish I had read your ridiculous response earlier Mr Hussein. You don't even know what the hours of the McCowans market were (I live here and used to shop there) and you're telling me not to "spout off"? I don't think you have any idea at all what you're talking about and your post just proves how ignorant you are.

Nothing you have said so far appears to be the least bit valid but while we're at it Mr Hussein, how about parking for 18 units? Is there any doubt at all that when people come to visit this complex that the street will fill up for blocks around with visitor's cars? Professional evaluation? What a joke you are, you don't know what hours the Market is open you can't even spell it's name and you claim to have somehow evaluated it. Your whole post is a farce!

Steve wrote:

how about parking for 18 units? Is there any doubt at all that when people come to

Parking for a supermarket is Code in LA at 4 required spaces for each 1,000-SF building. Estimating old market at 50,000-SF that would be 200-parking spaces required. Residential is Code at 2-spaces per 1000-SF or 2-spaces for a typical 1,000-SF 2-BR condo, plus guest spaces, at 1-per unit, so the 18 condos would be sized at 3x18= 54 spaces. Even if I'm off a few feet here and there residential parking requirements are still substantially lower than commercial market uses. And as stated before the number of daily trips for a supermarket also well exceeds residential, so you can attack the messenger all you want but you NIMBY's should know that the real facts are not on your side.

"Hussein my middle name" is absolutely, possitively correct with his facts.
McCowan's was a 15,000 square foot market and it should have been required to have 60 parking spaces, which is probably did.
Traffic to and from commercial buildings is far greater than similar-sized residential structures and the tables from the ITE state that.
But facts are facts and before McCowan's was built on the lots, there were SFRs, one to each approximately 5,000 square foot lot.
Facts are also stated that "R3" residential developments, similar to what Rosenthal could have built on his three lots currently zoned C1-1XL do not appear in areas where "R1" zoning is prominant, anywhere near 20Th and Walker.
Facts continue to become known by the very existance of the "Q" Qualification restriction that is fairly rare in major cities, but not in Los Angeles.
So, facts are facts, but........
L.A. residents do use the fact that they have a right to help determine what is in their best interest.
San Pedro residents also know the fact that their Councilwoman went to bat for their legal rights and interests.
You can state all the technical facts you wish, but San Pedrans have other facts that are just as true and just as important.

Hes correct but wrote:

"Hussein my middle name" is absolutely, possitively correct with his facts.
McCowan's was a 15,000 square foot market and it should have been required to have 60 parking spaces, which is probably did.
Traffic to and from commercial buildings is far greater than similar-sized residential structures and the tables from the ITE state that.
But facts are facts and before McCowan's was built on the lots, there were SFRs, one to each approximately 5,000 square foot lot.
Facts are also stated that "R3" residential developments, similar to what Rosenthal could have built on his three lots currently zoned C1-1XL do not appear in areas where "R1" zoning is prominant, anywhere near 20Th and Walker.
Facts continue to become known by the very existance of the "Q" Qualification restriction that is fairly rare in major cities, but not in Los Angeles.
So, facts are facts, but........
L.A. residents do use the fact that they have a right to help determine what is in their best interest.
San Pedro residents also know the fact that their Councilwoman went to bat for their legal rights and interests.
You can state all the technical facts you wish, but San Pedrans have other facts that are just as true and just as important.

Thank you for your note, I enjoy discussing facts without the mindless insults some people feel compelled to give. I have spent some time with the aerial photo at Google, and note the appear to be about 25 parking spots on site with about 31 in the lot across the street. It seems the neighbors objections are summarized as "It will put a strain on our utilities and add more traffic and density that's not wanted or needed." It seems to me that there will absolutely be no strain on utilities, and traffic will be at most equal, probably less, that the current use. The question then comes down to density. I think the real estate market will be speaking for the developer and would not be surprised to have the project delayed to see if prices will be rising otherwise the cost of construction wit any number of units cannot be recovered.

Mr Hussein, did you know the lot across the street (former parking lot) already has homes being built on it? I didn't think so. How could you possibly think you have a valid opinion when you don't even know what you're talking about?

Civic Minded wrote:

Unique neighborhoods my foot. A market that had 225-250 car trips a day is replaced by 18 condos that might have 45 car trips a day and they say traffic will increase? That's good ol' LAUSD education for ya! It's commercially zoned. I know container storage lots make good money for the owners. How about that instead? Nope, they are holding out that Comrade Hahn will extort the owner to put in a park like she did with the Port and Eastview Little League's new sandlot. Viva La Revolucion!

I generally agree that the Eastview people were wrong, but the issue with this neighborhood is fiferent. It is unique. Most people would walk to McCowans, not drive. It was also the only market/grocery store in the area that catered to the people of the food by having a delicious deli, the only place besides Ports of Call that you can buy octopus at, and a great place to pick up groceries as well.

You obviousely are not familiar with the area or you would not have written as you did.

the truth wrote:

RECALL HAHN! LET THIS MAN DEVELOPE HIS PRIVATE PROPERTY TO IT'S FULLEST POTENTIAL UNDER THE EXISTING LAWS, BUILDING CODES AND REGULATIONS. THIS DEVELOPMENT WILL GENERATE TREMENDOUS TAX REVENUE AND BENEFIT EVERYONE.

Thr truth is that this is one of those rare times that Hahn actually listened to the people and voted in their best interest. Should she be recalled? Yes. But not fot this vote. This developer is a scam artist and he thinks that Pedro is stupid. Sit back and watch just how intelligent we are.

Not to pile on or anything but you may want to check your calculations on the store size. The remaining lot looks to be 10,000 square feet (100 x 100) so it would have been real tricky to put a 15,000 square foot market on it. Maybe you should recalculate power usage and the individual size of those "condos" too. Let's discuss the "facts" shall we?

A local wrote:

Not to pile on or anything but you may want to check your calculations on the store size. The remaining lot looks to be 10,000 square feet (100 x 100) so it would have been real tricky to put a 15,000 square foot market on it. Maybe you should recalculate power usage and the individual size of those "condos" too. Let's discuss the "facts" shall we?

And when looking at the calculations add into the equasion the fact that the store had a lot of foot traffic from residents that are elderly, don't drive, or liked to take a walt to the local market. I never saw even half of the parking spaces in use, even when there were a lot of people shopping inside the store.

The square footage on the remaining lot is actually 14,078 sq ft.(125' deep about 112' wide), More than 10,000 but obviously less than what's needed for a 15,000 sq. ft store. Subtract the parking lot and any easements and what's left? I'm thinking about 9,000 square feet max for the store.
Mr. Hussein, I do apologize for the insults but this means a lot more to me than it does to you. Maybe you should visit the area some day, I'm sure you'll be surprised.

"I think the real estate market will be speaking for the developer and would not be surprised to have the project delayed to see if prices will be rising otherwise the cost of construction wit any number of units cannot be recovered."

Just a thought but since the prospect of selling these tiny shoebox size condos is rather bleak, is it possible that Mr. Rosenthal is really building himself an 18 unit apartment building. I don't know the law but rent is up and these little condo/apts would generate a very nice monthly income.

Looks like none of the "experts" are going to rework their power and traffic calculations for us. Not very sporting gentlemen.

Not very sporting at all I'm afraid. Hello, Mr Hussein..anyone there??