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No Joke

Moultonborough, NH

#1 Aug 22, 2011
"ok.. so I will make good on my promise. patric was found face down, fully clothed, including sneakers but no socks. His face was not turned, it was face down on the ground. He was flat out.. his arms were tucked under his body and while it is hard to tell from pic's his clothes looked dry. His feet were pointed. The next pic shows him turned over. He was white like a statue for the most part, his stomach area was kinda caved in and you could see his rib cab outline. there was some red streaking on his stomach. His face had an imprint of a leaf on his forehead, he had some dirt in his open eyes and an abrasion of sorts on his lip area. His arms were bent at the elbows and stiff looking His fingers were frozen in a claw. there were other closeup pics of various parts of him but that is basically it. There was not a single bug on him. Truthfully the position he was found in looked like he would have been standing up and then just fell..like a stone, onto his face and stomach. His pant legs were up and his toes pointed, hard to describe. So the questions that come to mind just from the pics are: 1.. no insect activity. NONE after 5 days, you should see something. The weather was cool at night not cold. We have the temp. from that week, hour by hour. It was warm in the day. look at the video of the searchers. they are in shorts. 2. Hypothermia victims usually shed their clothes and curl up in the fetal position. Usually , not always, but usually. I knew Patric very very well. He was the most timid child. Say he wasn't murdered. Say it was an accident and he was running panicked through the woods.(I forgot to mention above that there were hardly any scratches on him.) He would have gotten exhausted, he would have been so frightened and he would have eventually found somewhere to sit or lie down, most likely fallen asleep and then died. He would not have laid down with his arms tucked under him and his face in the dirt and died. Cardiac Arrest? he was running and his body just stopped and he pitched forward dead? Bill I don't know who you are, I have no idea. I hope you are not one of the people who hurt Patric. But if you are nothing I have said above will surprise you. and if you arent' please look at this case again. Why no insect activity? Why no animal activity patric was in perfect condition, like he had died an hour or two before. Why was his body stiff if he had died 4-5 days prior? How long does rigor last? Not that long... Your thoughts? and thank you for the sympathetic words.. I loved Patric but it his his mother who suffers. All she wants is the truth. Nothing more and nothing less. She is resigned to the fact that this may never go the way she believes it should. But she will keep trying. She knew her son. He did not do what they said. Really.. how could you get lost in that condo complex? There were people everywhere, houses everywhere. He would never ever have ventured into the woods. Not ever. He was too scared. That is how we know he did not run off and get lost. and then there is everything else... so much evidence that has never been released. Not ever. All found by the mother's family. Not the fathers PI."

Here is what tells the real story....PATRIC WAS MURDERED....!!!
No Joke

Moultonborough, NH

#2 Aug 22, 2011
Thank You...Nakasuejen.
nakasuejen

Buzzards Bay, MA

#3 Aug 22, 2011
Your welcome.. so is this where you think we should discuss evidence? apparently you agree with me. and just so people know.. you added that last line "here is what tells the real story..." however I absolutely agree with you!
No Joke

Bangor, ME

#4 Aug 23, 2011
I have been working the info on this case for better than 7 yrs. now and have always came to the same conclusion. After reading this evidence I now believe 100% that PATRIC WAS MURDERED. I am still not sure by whom at this point especially because of the location of the body. 2 miles UPHILL in the dense woods is a long way for just a boy or someone carrying a body.

I think this would be a good place for evidence so We can start on a fresh slate.

Thank You again....Jack
nakasuejen

Buzzards Bay, MA

#5 Aug 24, 2011
so lets talk about that. the theory is not that someone carried him all that way, but used an off road trail that was accessible by vehicle to transport him most of the way. are you familiar with the terrain up there? I am not. But have been told that there is a "road" that goes up that mountain, not used by the general public of course, more a well worn trail of sorts that an off road type of car/truck could use.I am going to look at google earth this week to refresh my memory. its been a while since I did that. then I will be back..
No Joke

Bangor, ME

#6 Aug 24, 2011
OK.

I am unsure of the terrain there but I have heard of that trail. Have looked for it but never found it. That is a very plausible theory.

I know people who were involved in the search for Patric but they were kept lower down the Mtn. to keep them from getting hurt or lost. They described the land as very steep and treacherous and they are people who hike often enough to know.

I will talk to You again soon. It is about time some answers come to light in the Murder of Little Patric.

Thank You

Jack

Since: Nov 08

Location hidden

#7 Aug 24, 2011
If people here really do have an open mind, and if they are going to play like adults Iíll try participating. I will answer people that ask legitimate, respectful, questions in a respectful, honest, manner. If one person treats me with respect and another doesnít, guess who Iíll respond to. I have been remarkably busy as of late that is why I havenít had any time to respond. I will be happy to respond as often as I can, and to help in areas that I have knowledge but I do sometimes get too busy to do so.

I have a pretty good knowledge of the Whites and have been in that area on camping trips some more than a week long for many years, as well as looking specifically at the spot where they found Patric years after the accident. I have gained significant knowledge about camping, wilderness medicine, SAR and military experience from many years of practice. If I know an answer I will tell you. If I can speculate Iíll tell you that is what I am doing. I SUGGEST YOU NEVER BELIEVE A WORD I WRITE. Research my answers before coming to any of your own conclusions.

I will state again that I have no knowledge of the family. I have never met anyone in the family, before, during or after the accident, period. Anyone suggesting that I have is a total lie, in its parts and as a whole.

Google earth is a good resource. Also acme mapper 2.0 is another good resource as that includes topographical maps which have a tremendous amount of information in them. When I heard the claim that someone drove Patric to that site I checked the USGS topo maps for any jeep trails. There are none anywhere near that area shown on the maps. The few that are there donít go into the woods very far at all. Now what might not be on the map are what are called skidder trails for logging. They might be visible on aerial photos but they change very often and CANNOT be driven by any vehicle like a jeep or anything without five foot tall tires and they rarely go more than a mile usually less into the forest. They will be easy to find on aerial photos because they will likely be areas of clear-cutís. Look up images of ďtimber skiddersĒ to see what I am talking about. Nothing short of that can get through the terrain we are talking about and even then only after enough trees have been taken down. I have hiked on skidder trails more than once. They can be almost impossible to walk, there is no chance any kind of vehicle can get through.

I will also tell you that my understanding is that the person who supposedly did the driving was an Army Scout from what I was told. I was also an Army Scout. An NCO actually though around 25 to 30 years removed from what I can tell. If I was going to attempt something like this (bearing in mind I already knew from the outset this is impossible because of the terrain) I would do a map reconnaissance. I assume that he would have done the same. Doing that shows absolutely nothing of any use as far as a usable road to anywhere, remotely close (miles) to where Patric was found. So how did this person find this road even IF it existed? Did he know about it before, somehow? Has anyone shown that he has ever been to that area before, during or after? Asking the question again, if not, how did he find this road, if it even exists?

continued...

Since: Nov 08

Location hidden

#8 Aug 24, 2011
I already see problems with trying to do this. People that claim to have an open mind do not repeatedly insist that a murder occurred. So much for an open mind. What you are actually trying to do is force the facts to conform to your conclusion. If you really keep an open mind you will follow the facts and them come to a conclusion. You could change my mind in a heartbeat if you have anything that doesnít fit. So far, most of what has been stated as fact of murder is either actually been labeled as incorrect by all the coroners or explainable in other ways. People who are looking for the truth do not keep trying to smash square pegs into round holes.

I will try to answer one of the previous questions. Patric laying out flat. What if, speculating here, what if his exhaustion overtook him on the side of that drainage. He falls, laying even partly sideways on the side of that drainage. Would he not log roll down the hill? Could that not explain his position, why he wasnít found in the fetal position? Maybe? Hypothermia slowly takes him while he is unconscious in that position? No? Why not? Again, I donít have all the answers. I doubt that all the answers will ever be known but I can speculate on answers that show it wasnít a murder without even knowing what three coroners said.

Iíll try to get to the temperatures later and the temperatures where much colder than you apparently think.

Bill

Since: Nov 08

Location hidden

#9 Aug 24, 2011
This was supposed to post first.

If people here really do have an open mind, and if they are going to play like adults Iíll try participating. I will answer people that ask legitimate, respectful, questions in a respectful, honest, manner. If one person treats me with respect and another doesnít, guess who Iíll respond to. I have been remarkably busy as of late that is why I havenít had any time to respond. I will be happy to respond as often as I can, and to help in areas that I have knowledge but I do sometimes get too busy to do so.

I have a pretty good knowledge of the Whites and have been in that area on camping trips some more than a week long for many years, as well as looking specifically at the spot where they found Patric years after the accident. I have gained significant knowledge about camping, wilderness medicine, SAR and military experience from many years of practice. If I know an answer I will tell you. If I can speculate Iíll tell you that is what I am doing. I SUGGEST YOU NEVER BELIEVE A WORD I WRITE. Research my answers before coming to any of your own conclusions.

I will state again that I have no knowledge of the family. I have never met anyone in the family, before, during or after the accident, period. Anyone suggesting that I have is a total lie, in its parts and as a whole.

Google earth is a good resource. Also acme mapper 2.0 is another good resource as that includes topographical maps which have a tremendous amount of information in them. When I heard the claim that someone drove Patric to that site I checked the USGS topo maps for any jeep trails. There are none anywhere near that area shown on the maps. The few that are there donít go into the woods very far at all. Now what might not be on the map are what are called skidder trails for logging. They might be visible on aerial photos but they change very often and CANNOT be driven by any vehicle like a jeep or anything without five foot tall tires and they rarely go more than a mile usually less into the forest. They will be easy to find on aerial photos because they will likely be areas of clear-cutís. Look up images of ďtimber skiddersĒ to see what I am talking about. Nothing short of that can get through the terrain we are talking about and even then only after enough trees have been taken down. I have hiked on skidder trails more than once. They can be almost impossible to walk, there is no chance any kind of vehicle can get through.

I will also tell you that my understanding is that the person who supposedly did the driving was an Army Scout from what I was told. I was also an Army Scout. An NCO actually though around 25 to 30 years removed from what I can tell. If I was going to attempt something like this (bearing in mind I already knew from the outset this is impossible because of the terrain) I would do a map reconnaissance. I assume that he would have done the same. Doing that shows absolutely nothing of any use as far as a usable road to anywhere, remotely close (miles) to where Patric was found. So how did this person find this road even IF it existed? Did he know about it before, somehow? Has anyone shown that he has ever been to that area before, during or after? Asking the question again, if not, how did he find this road, if it even exists?

Bill
No Joke

Bangor, ME

#10 Aug 24, 2011
The trail that is accessible by 4 X 4 which goes partway up Whaleback mountain starts at the Lincoln Woods Parking lot. It starts as the Lincoln Woods trail and takes a left onto the Osseo trail up Whaleback Mtn. The Osseo trail used to actually be the Railbed for the logging RR back in the 1800'S.
No Joke

Bangor, ME

#11 Aug 24, 2011
Lincoln woods Trail and Mnt. Bike Path.

Riding through mixed forest, you get views of the East Branch of the Pemigewasset River and the White Mountains. The return side of this loop follows a section of the old East Branch and Lincoln logging railroad bed. An excellent waterfall and swimming hole are accessible via a short side trip. Tread: 2.9 miles on jeep trail; 0.6 mile on singletrack; 2.9 miles on doubletrack (old logging railroad bed). Location: 5 miles east of Interstate 93, exit 32, just off Kancamagus Highway (New Hampshire 112) in White Mountain National Forest.

Read more at Trails.com : Lincoln Woods Trail (The Wilderness Trail)| Lincoln New Hampshire Mountain Bike Trails | Trails.com http://www.trails.com/tcatalog_trail.aspx...
No Joke

Bangor, ME

#12 Aug 24, 2011
From: www.Lincolnwoodstock.com

"At its height, the Henry Company owned 115,000 acres and employed 500 men. In a mere quarter century- from 1892 to 1917- their crews stripped the trees cover from a vast stretch of the once pristine East Branch country. Over two dozen rough-and-tumble logging camps were spread far and wide in the wilderness. Logging railroads laced the valleys east and north of Lincoln, bringing endless loads of virgin timber back to the saw, pulp and paper mills. Henry's ruthless clear-cutting methods, and the disastrous forest fires that followed, earned him such nicknames as " Wood Butcher" and "Mutilator of Nature." J.E. Henry died in 1912 and in 1917 his three sons sold the operation to the Parker-Young Company. East Branch logging continued on a scaled-down basis into the 1940s and the mills closed for good in the 1970s."

Since: Nov 08

Location hidden

#13 Aug 24, 2011
No Joke wrote:
The trail that is accessible by 4 X 4 which goes partway up Whaleback mountain starts at the Lincoln Woods Parking lot. It starts as the Lincoln Woods trail and takes a left onto the Osseo trail up Whaleback Mtn. The Osseo trail used to actually be the Railbed for the logging RR back in the 1800'S.
I have hiked on the Wilderness trail, Lincoln Woods trail and Osseo trail and there is no way that someone driving a jeep down Wilderness trail wouldn't have been noticed. There is actually no way for a vehicle to access that trail without special access. And there is no way that the evidence of such a journey would have gone unnoticed. Regardless of what the book says there is no way you would ever get a jeep up Osseo trail. That trail is so rough that in areas there are ladders actually placed for people to hike up it. That is how rough it is. It would be impossible to use a vehicle on Osseo. Also, if they did use Osseo they would still have a herculean task to get a body to where it was dumped. There is no close, spot to get from Osseo to that spot on Whaleback.

Again, don't take my word for it. Ask on some of the dedicated hiking sites about this. Ask if anyone who has hiked Osseo if they think they could get any type of vehicle up that trail. Those are not jeep trails. While the Wilderness trail and Lincoln woods trail on the other side of the river can be easily traveled by mountain bike, I have never heard of anyone going up or down Osseo on bike except for possibly the very beginning of the trail. And being on Lincoln Woods trail or the Wilderness trail puts you as low on the mountain as you can get at about 1200 or 1300 feet depending. And then you need to travel over several peaks or saddles to get to that location.

Bill

Since: Nov 08

Location hidden

#14 Aug 24, 2011
I will write what the White mountain guide says about Osseo trail later tonight.

Bill
No Joke

Bangor, ME

#15 Aug 24, 2011
I should have said 4 wheeler, not 4 X 4. And Bill You are also right about the terrain there. I know that at one time they used 4 wheelers for a rescue in that area. I am looking for that info now.

Jack

Since: Nov 08

Location hidden

#16 Aug 24, 2011
From the White mountain guide 27th edition. Osseo trail. "This trail connects the lower end of the Wilderness trail with the south end of the Franconia Ridge, near the summit of Mount Flume. It begins on the west side of the Wilderness Trail, 1.4 miles north of the parking area on the Kancamagus highway. It heads west, following a brook in a flat area, than climbs the bank to the right and soon enters a section of an old incline logging railroad grade at one of its switchbacks. It continues up the valley on this grade and then on old logging roads not far above the brook. At 2.1 miles it turns right and climbs by switchbacks to the top of the ridge above the valley to the north, then ascends the ridge - winding about it first, then climbing by zigzags as the ridge steepens. At the top of this section are several wooden staircases, and a 3.2 miles a side path leads right to a "downlook" with a very fine view of Mount Bond.

Soon the trail reaches the top of the ridge, and its grade becomes easy until it reaches the crest of the Franconia Ridge in an unusually flat area at 3.7 miles. The trail turns sharp right here and ascends near the crest of a narrow range to the junction with the Flume Slide trail on the left and the Franconia Ridge Trail straight ahead.

From the Wilderness trail junction the Osseo trail starts at 1300 feet and continues to the junction of the Flume Slide trail and Franconia Ridge trail junction at 4220 feet. that is a trail distance of 4.1 miles long with 2900 feet of elevation change and an estimated trail time of 3 1/2 hours to do that route."

My comments. If you are carrying a pack or a weight of 50 or 60 pounds I would estimate it at a six to seven hour hike - one way. A dayhiker in good shape with a light day pack might be able to do it in 3.5 hours, I promise you most would not. This is based on many years of estimating times for hikes.

Bill

Since: Nov 08

Location hidden

#17 Aug 24, 2011
No Joke wrote:
I should have said 4 wheeler, not 4 X 4. And Bill You are also right about the terrain there. I know that at one time they used 4 wheelers for a rescue in that area. I am looking for that info now.
Jack
If you are talking about an ATV then yes. They have used ATV's and even pick ups on the east side of the river on the Lincoln woods trail. I did a rescue once at the Franconia campsite where we crossed the river to load this person into the back of a pickup in a litter on the Lincoln Woods forest road. I own and ride ATVs. In my opinion, an ATV could not traverse the Osseo Trail but could easily go back and forth on the Wilderness trail to Franconia campsite or the Lincoln woods trail. I have ridden a bike on Wilderness trail to the Franconia falls and back. The ranger had a bike with a trailer that they use to ride back and forth also. That is a three mile ride to the campsite in one direction when the Franconia campsite was on the west side of the river many years ago. Wilderness trail is a very flat, very wide, old railroad grade. Even riding to the entrance of Osseo trail that puts you with many miles left to go and several thousand feet to go up and down. A remarkable feat for anyone to accomplish. Virtually impossible considering the effort needed to be expended considering all the people out there looking and the time frame that it would need to be accomplished. In my opinion.

Bill
No Joke

Bangor, ME

#18 Aug 25, 2011
Thank You for the info Bill. I am not exactly sure where the actual spot Patrics body was found. I have never seen it marked directly on a map. Do You have a map w/ an exact location so I could get a better idea of the exact spot. I was only going by F & G reports and newspaper articles.

I know the distance from the condos up the Mtn. but not sure of the exact spot. Thank You Bill.

Jack

Since: Nov 08

Location hidden

#19 Aug 25, 2011
No Joke wrote:
Thank You for the info Bill. I am not exactly sure where the actual spot Patrics body was found. I have never seen it marked directly on a map. Do You have a map w/ an exact location so I could get a better idea of the exact spot. I was only going by F & G reports and newspaper articles.
I know the distance from the condos up the Mtn. but not sure of the exact spot. Thank You Bill.
Jack
I just checked the email from August '09 that I received the information of the coordinates in. I was asked to keep it out of the public domain by someone I believe to be a family member or close friend and I have done so. I don't know if another family member or close relative will or has revealed it but I am afraid that unless that person gives me permission I can't.

I have seen enough information in the public domain that would allow one to get close enough for most work.

Bill

Since: Nov 08

Location hidden

#20 Aug 25, 2011
nakasuejen wrote:
so lets talk about that. the theory is not that someone carried him all that way, but used an off road trail that was accessible by vehicle to transport him most of the way. are you familiar with the terrain up there? I am not. But have been told that there is a "road" that goes up that mountain, not used by the general public of course, more a well worn trail of sorts that an off road type of car/truck could use.I am going to look at google earth this week to refresh my memory. its been a while since I did that. then I will be back..
What many people may not know is that the Osseo trail-head actually use to start in the back of the condos that Patric was at. If you look at old White mountain maps it shows Osseo trail starting in the back of the condos. The trail-head was relocated when the condos were built to the location the the trail-head now resides. I have been up that old trail. You are not going to get any vehicle on it and again, any evidence of that would be very clear to searchers, except at the lowest elevations. Anyone that might be talking about those as an access to the upper parts of the mountain certainly didn't follow them like I did or they would know that nothing other than someone walking could go any distance along the overgrown trail. If it was possible that an ATV could go up there, and again I seriously doubt it, and I have a 4 wheel drive ATV, it would tear hell out of the terrain. A blind person would be able to see that something went through. And all the people that have suggested this scenario talk about him doing it at night to top it off. To recap, in my opinion, it would be dangerous as hell, not actually be able to be accomplished, and any attempt to try it would be clearly visible and totally track-able by even the worst tracker in the world.

Bill

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