Kennrth Copeland Gave Keith Moore Jet Airplane

by more or less I mean - more on substance, less on style and tactics. you know who you are. calm down, stop insulting, get specific, make sense, make a rational argument, define your terms - there are very important points to be made, and you can do it well enough if you stop using topix as a way to be steamy hot, and use cool minds.

what I am saying is that this could be a fascinating discussion, with the different views that have been expressed, if we try to clarify and maybe even be civil to each other, while we spell out our differences, and strong disageements, without being mean or hostile. Try it, you might like it. on a religious site, it might be considered to be appropriate, by the religious ones - and the rational ones might want not to be outdone in cordiality and civility. think about it.

seventies chick wrote:

<quoted text>Hi Ancestor, Hows life treatin ya? Im doing good. Had to take a medical leave at work. I have a bad knee full of Arthritis and Im having physical therapy on it and It sure helps with the pain. Other than that Im doing great. Thanks for asking. Hope your doing well.

now here is a good example of why people should be cordial. this person and the next are discussing arthritis in the knees, and may be approximately my age, and I have arthritis in the knees - if I have been nasty to either of them, then I apologize, because I understand the pain. I have been afraid to take pain killers because of side effects, so I limp and hurt - and I am afraid of operations too. really a wimp about stuff like that. If I am hostile to you guys, and you are hostile to me, how can we talk about the problems - and solutions - of our common humanity? I think I disagreed with you on something, or thought you were too rough on someone, but that would not justify being personally hostile to you. Why should folks burn bridges by being insulting?

so I hope both of you are doing better, too. got a question? did you think the pain was worse when humidity was high? before rain? I remember the old folks - when I was young - talking about their Rheumatism, and how it was telling them that a storm was coming. now I think my knees hurt more on a high humidity day, or before rain - and feel better in low humidity. has that been your reaction too? and to the one with the operation - was it worth it, are things much better? should I check out any other option first? do you guys know anything about this product called Icelandic formula, fish oil and extras, advertized on tV? I really would appreciate some advice from folks who are going through the same pain and unpleasant slow-down! I am 70, and female, by the way.

Onewsimus Jones wrote:

<quoted text>
Churches were IMMUNE from taxes until lawyers came up with 501c3 as a way to regulate them, especially in regards to speaking out against evils perpetrated by the government.
Churches, for all their flaws, have historically done a much more efficient job of helping the poor, and other beneficial things for society. This takes a load off of government, and is why churches have historically not only been untaxed.
Our founders wisely departed from the state financed church, because they didn't want any particular sect to control policy and oppress other sects, as well as unbelievers.
Tax immunity is the best alternative between state subsidized churches and state controlled churches. The idea is that each has its own realm, and each should stay out of the affairs of the other as much as possible.(I do not mean individuals should not follow their religious or political passions, but that political and religious entities give each other maximum space.)
Churches shouldn't be incorporated, and they weren't until lawyers hoodwinked them into it. Shame on churches for complying with 501c3 "exemption."
Having said all that, I cringe at the teachings and practices of the televangelists, and personally don't contribute to them. But I also know people who have benefited from their ministries and are better citizens as a result.
Society benefits more from the work of a misguided, flamboyant televangelist than from the meddling of a pompous Senator.
Senator Grassley and his fellow termites are eating my house. Keith Moore hasn't taken anything from me.

You did a fairly good job of stating your views, until you got nasty at the end. The investigation by Senator Grassley of possible violations of the IRS code by certain big churches, is justified - he is after folks who disobey the law, and profit from it. Churches are not allwoed to be crooks. I am no fan of Grassley in general, but this is a gutsy thing to do, considering all the nut-case religious types in the new gOP, who call anyone a RINO who is not a dittohead and a superstitious true believer who is willing to write blank checks to the rich and powerful. Just as gutsy as the Catholic politicians who do not cave in to the Pope and his minions. I can understand sensible conservatives and moderates, though I prefer the social gospel and liberation theology type Christians (and similar types in other religions), but there are a variety of right-wing superstitious nut-case sects and cults. I am just trying to figure out how bad or merely mediocre and pollyanna the success-prosperity faction, compared with the other ones who are - in my view - to the wacko right-wing side of conventional pastoral kindness and communityh-oriented religious views. You were making good points about churches doing much good with charities - but what if a doctrine says the rich deserve to be rich, and that- by implication - the poor deserve to be poor? If you are to the right of Senator Grassley politically, you are no moderate! Can you explain the contrast - take a look at your own comment - between the relatively moderate substantive content, which I did not object to - and the hostile comment re lawyers and politicians, which was biased and simplistic? If you want to launch a discussion which is partly reasoned, and partly polemical, I can do that too! in reply.

And if you know Keith Moore, tell us about him.

quantrill wrote:

What amazes me nowadays about these tv businessmen are their catch phrases. Like "make a seed offering","if you will plant the seed god will return it two you a hundredfold". Anything to get in peoples pocketbook. I once called them and told them I wanted to make their ministry rich,they replied with excitement"how much would you like to pledge"? I said I didn't want to pledge anything but if they will give me $10,000 that they said god would bless you a hundred fold. Which would make them a million dollars,the bastards hung up on me. Guess they don't believe what they preach.True story though.

wonderful story - I believe it is a true story. wonder how various other churches would reply?

would prefer the non-use of the nasty word however

I give to KCM wrote:

I thank God Kenneth Copeland is sowing my seed twice.! Some of the comments are born of envy and lack of understanding about the laws of giving a receiving. Give and It shall be given unto you.! What ever you sow that also you shall reap.! Sow envy will have more..! sow airplanes gert ready for a new one.! Critizize a ministry get ready to get critizize also.!

so you are generous only for the pay-back, with interest? not a very virtuous reason to be generous.

newby wrote:

"Ministries" like KMC are invaluable in this free enterprise economy. Who else could afford the venues, jets and $5,000.00 suits. Please keep giving your hard earned after tax income to these great tax free enterprises. I heard they are asking for donations to fund a bridge over the Sahara desert that is needed by the local camel jockeys. I know I will donate. How about you???

again, thanks for the light-hearted levity! vastly amusing imagination. Please look up on youtube - Revernend Billy and the Church of Stop Shopping - you might like him. He is a satirist too. and so are the Pastafarians, with the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

seventies chick wrote:

<quoted text>You poor ignorant soul. Dont you have anything better to do than sit on that computer and bash people? Get a life.

are you sure you never bash people - and do you do it with as light a heart as he does? or was not your very first phrase a bashing of him? he is not poor and ignorant. he is a clever smarty-ironic joker, having fun with this topic. it does not hurt anything. we all have to learn to tolerate relatively clean and clever irony that makes fun of our side. That is much better than being mean or condescending, actually. suppose someone was condescending to you, wouldn't you resent it?- irony is less mean-spirited or arrogant than condescending attitudes. you were nicer when you were being a real person, with pain and problems and a friend you were glad to welcome back. Instead of criticizing him, or his entire comment - it would be OK to find some specific thing that you find hurtful or offensive, and tell him why it hurts your feelings. but we must be careful not to be too hurt by light-hearted jokers who do not intend to hurt us, even when they attack us! or our opinions.

Ike wrote:

<quoted text> This is brilliant. I imagine if you tried this on any of these thieving, low lifes (Whites, Keith Moore, Tilton, Stewart, Popoff, Jenkins, Jordan, Copelands, Hinn, Swaggart, Bakker, Davis, Meyer, etc,etc,etc, too many to count) that NONE of them would offer any help and would likely hang up on you, too. How logical, send the TV preacher viewer some cash and the TV preacher gets a hundred fold return! How obvious a way for the TV preacher to cash in even more bucks! Turn the table on these bastards and see what they are really all about!

other than the b word, and the lumping together of all those guys as if they are all the same, I can understand your delight at his story. we are not sure that all of them are thieving, and we do not know whether they lie to themselves first, before they deceive others, or not. maybe some really believe the stuff they put out. it must be nice and cozy to have a success-prosperty ideology, if one is materially successful and prosperous - guilt-free exploitation of the suckers of the world.

it is not all that different from the folks who bundled the bad variable-rate mortgages, sliced and diced them, bribed rating agencies to rate them AAA, and then sold them to the "bigger fool" who came along and speculated on selling the stuff to an even bigger fool. pie in the sky by and by. or musical chairs, find the next sucker and sell before the music stops.

Jay wrote:

<quoted text>
Frankly, I am glad to have a man of God receive a jet to fly around in for ministry. I finding interesting that we (society) give a pass to these silly TV and movie stars who waste money on themselves but are very critical of the men of God who are trying to point people to the cross of Christ. Keith Moore is a good teacher of God's word. He does not teach the properity without obedience of God's Word. I have listened to him extensively, I read the bible and have a real relationship with God. I am not a silly person who sits on my behind expecting God to bless me without doing my part. I know the blessings of God. He has taken care of me and my family, blessing us with things we are not expecting. In turn we are able to bless others. We ARE BLESSED TO BLESS, we don't hoard it, we spread it. AND the greatest blessing beyond the financial is the peace that God gives me everyday. All that said - I am happy for Keith, Kenneth and everyone else who travels around ministering to have a nice jet, homes, cars and what ever else they have. AND if there is a problem with it, GOD will deal with it. HE is much better at it than you are. He is just, let Him take care of it all.

If you are sure about Moore, are you as informed and certain about the others. I have repeatedly said they should not all be treated the same, lumped together, criticized or praised as a group, but studied as individuals. I would read carefully whatever you wish to tell about Moore, his teachings, his style of ministry, etc. You do not sound like a nut-case extremist, or a mindless true believer - more like a fairly typical conservative Christian who is well-meaning. I may not agree with you, but I see no reason not to read what you write with respect and interest.

exheathen wrote:

Blessers get blessed, so if you want to be blessed - be a blessing - and lean not on your own understanding-UNDERSTAND!!!!!! !

anyone telling me to lean not on my own understanding, is probably trying to sell me on someone else's lies or misunderstanding, which that someone else trys to pawn off as God's word, and its true interpretation. I'm not buying that! I like my mind just fine thank you, and do not want to submit to your mindless propaganda.

Newby wrote:

<quoted text>
I can and will mock phony ministries such as this.
With that said I would encourage you to sell all your posessions and give it up for the ministries jet fuel fund

I was on your side of this feud until I read her comments about having arthritis in the knees. Since I have it too, I can understand at least one motive for getting religion! ah, the recovery of the speedy and pleasant free-flowing walking of youth! so be kinder to her than she is to you. I tried to explain irony to her. I bet you are a Colbertnation person - if not, you should be. unless your politics are unlike your rationality on other matters! I am not kidding about Revernend Billy, and also the Pastafarians. find them and enjoy!

I think I have replied to everyone at least once, and I hope that I have planted some seeds that will produce some food for thought. this could be a very interesting and civilized discussion. I do not pretend to be entirely correct and polite when I think someone deserves to be retaliated against, but I think there can be some reasonable limits on how personally hostile or nasty we are to each other. do not mind apologizing, if I find I have judged someone too harsly, or not taken mitigating circumstances into consideration. I do recognize that many people do need the consolations of religion, to help them take what would otherwise be too deep a grief, but I have zero tolerance for those who use religion as a way to feed their own egos and bank accounts.

I am still curious about people's views of Keith Moore, especially those who know him, or have heard him speak, or know of his work in that community. Does he participate in any ecumenical projects? Does he preach that there is a hell, and if so, what does he think gets punished in that way? and does he work with things like food pantries, soup kitchens, finding homes for the homeless, etc? does he preach about end times, apocalypse, and Book of Revelation, and if so, what? or give us a link so we can watch any sermons or whatever he has on youtube or internet. I want to see for myself, and react to his persona.

progressive wrote:

<quoted text> Why don't you define the version of God that you think is evil, and explain what specific things you think are evil. Is it the creator of nature, or author of the Bible, or God in the sermons of teh preachers, or in certain books, or in the words of certain believers, or what? I didn't like Zeus much - prefer Hermes.

The post your quoted was posted by someone posing as me. I would NEVER post such an offensive thing. For one thing, I don't believe for a nano-second that God is evil. And for another saying such a thing would be sinful, and offensive to God.