Missouri child-support law change touches many issues

And we award yet another child support pitty pot of the year award to Joe, who puts a value on his child's quality of life and doesn't understand why he should exceed the value he's assigned that child's quality of life in terms of child support payments.

Mom of 3 wrote:

<quoted text>
Exactly! BTW - Just because a student fails out and gets dismissed from college doesn't mean the child support stops. A university can dismiss someone, but all the student has to do is then transfer to a community college where they accept any GPA and continue to get support without the passing grades....therefore, no consequences to the bad grades. This system is not working!

And how long can one continue to transfer from college to college where they don't care about grades of a prior college? BTW, it means, too, that your child will - just the way you want - have to work in addition to whatever meager amount of child support you contribute, because bad grades or getting kicked out of the previous college won't qualify her for Pell Grants, or other Grants, or even student loans. That makes it cash and carry, and if she wants her education she has to make the grades wherever she transfers to in order to once again become eligible for funding. So, you win, of course. That is what you wanted all the way around - she's learned a lesson, the lesson you have said here you want her to learn and now you can be HAPPY about paying for her education.

You really are grasping at straws to demonstrate this child is a conniving, lying, worthless malcontent. If the law says he can stops, he stops. If the law says he has to keep paying, just keep paying until the law says he stops. You take credit for having changed the law in your favor already - now you want more - go for it, make that your manifestation of your bitterness and jealousy about your husband's first child.

It is the image you project of yourself here, Mom of 3, that you are a BIG part of the problem in the dynamics you have described here again and again.

Annie wrote:

<quoted text>
Responder - How did you get your location to look like your in China...nice try!

Thank you for the smile, Annie. I would love to see China - perhaps one day, heh?

Responder wrote:

<quoted text>
Susan,
Your words:
Susan wrote:
I hate Missouri. Everything about the state. I will never buy Budweiser. I will never vacation in the Ozarks. I will never cheer for the Cardinals and I think Branson is a joke. If I have to add 2 hours of drive time, I will in order not to drive thru Missouri. I will not stop at their restaurants, gas stations, souvenir shops or amusement parks. West Virginia is looking better and better.

Everyone is allowed to vent every once in a while. The purpose is to show that the judicial system in MO has agrivated our family enough that we won't pay anything towards their state tax. It's just a boycot. Was this the only post you found from me? Libs are great at picking and choosing for their point. At least I said that you started being nice. I just didn't pick out one of your nasty posts and suggest that you have always been like that. Get over yourself and get back to the subject.

Responder wrote:

<quoted text>
And how long can one continue to transfer from college to college where they don't care about grades of a prior college? BTW, it means, too, that your child will - just the way you want - have to work in addition to whatever meager amount of child support you contribute, because bad grades or getting kicked out of the previous college won't qualify her for Pell Grants, or other Grants, or even student loans. That makes it cash and carry, and if she wants her education she has to make the grades wherever she transfers to in order to once again become eligible for funding. So, you win, of course. That is what you wanted all the way around - she's learned a lesson, the lesson you have said here you want her to learn and now you can be HAPPY about paying for her education.
You really are grasping at straws to demonstrate this child is a conniving, lying, worthless malcontent. If the law says he can stops, he stops. If the law says he has to keep paying, just keep paying until the law says he stops. You take credit for having changed the law in your favor already - now you want more - go for it, make that your manifestation of your bitterness and jealousy about your husband's first child.
It is the image you project of yourself here, Mom of 3, that you are a BIG part of the problem in the dynamics you have described here again and again.

You are wrong...Pell Grants aren't based on grades, they are based on financial need. Also, if your parent who pays child support has never claimed you on their taxes, you don't have to include their income or your child support as income in order to qualify for that grant. You CAN get kicked out, go to a community college, keep your Pell Grant, which you really don't need because you get almost $1000 a month in child support plus 1/2 of your tuition paid for. There is no out of pocket and no consequences...you don't know what you're talking about. This system is still not working. I really don't want to engage in your banter, but I do think it's important to clarify your posts...when you are completely wrong. See...I did that without calling you a name or putting you down personally...imagine that.

Mom of 3 wrote:

<quoted text>
You are wrong...Pell Grants aren't based on grades, they are based on financial need. Also, if your parent who pays child support has never claimed you on their taxes, you don't have to include their income or your child support as income in order to qualify for that grant. You CAN get kicked out, go to a community college, keep your Pell Grant, which you really don't need because you get almost $1000 a month in child support plus 1/2 of your tuition paid for. There is no out of pocket and no consequences...you don't know what you're talking about. This system is still not working. I really don't want to engage in your banter, but I do think it's important to clarify your posts...when you are completely wrong. See...I did that without calling you a name or putting you down personally...imagine that.

Read the Grant rules, and if she attended a college prior to a community college, she is supposed to tell them that. Also, if she is a dependent, she must give both parents' income - custodial and absent parent. Since dad claims what he makes as income, there is no reason for the mistake to do it or her mother.

I think it is very important to clarify too, on that point we agree. You want to create a picture that has all kinds of Catch 22s for your Fighting Dad husband, but it just is not that way. Besides, if she goes to Community College and makes the grade, it make your argument moot, right? You want her to get good grades, right? That's what you have been harping on here. So if she does, you can be happy? C'mon, let's hear you say that you would be happy if she got good grades. Because if she bombs out there too, how many options do you think she has left - that is if we go by your very flawed "what if" scenario.

The point continues to be that you are really angry about paying for this young woman. Obviously she was there before you were, and he was paying for her when you came along. So why did you marry this guy if this whole thing causes you such distress? I mean I am really curious, you hate this situation. Why did you go into it and why are you still there?

Mom of 3 wrote:

<quoted text>
You are wrong...Pell Grants aren't based on grades, they are based on financial need. Also, if your parent who pays child support has never claimed you on their taxes, you don't have to include their income or your child support as income in order to qualify for that grant. You CAN get kicked out, go to a community college, keep your Pell Grant, which you really don't need because you get almost $1000 a month in child support plus 1/2 of your tuition paid for. There is no out of pocket and no consequences...you don't know what you're talking about. This system is still not working. I really don't want to engage in your banter, but I do think it's important to clarify your posts...when you are completely wrong. See...I did that without calling you a name or putting you down personally...imagine that.

Here are the first rules of eligibility for FAFSA - which includes PELL - and I think you will find I am correct. IF your daughter had PELL previously, and she bombed out of school or did not get the credit hours - SHE OWES the money for the grant back! They keep good track of those things.

If she did not financialy qualify for PELL before, then she won't qualify at Community College either. If she doesn't make the grade, she bombs out. So you are talking about as much as a semester - or less if she gets kicked out for bad grades - of child support?

Here are the rules:

Who is eligible to receive Federal Student Aid?

To receive federal student aid, you must meet certain requirements. You must:

Be a U.S. citizen or eligible non-citizen
Have a valid Social Security Number (unless you’re from the Republic of the Marshall Islands, the Federated States of Micronesia, or the Republic of Palau).
Register with Selective Service if you are male and 18 to 25 years of age (go to www.sss.gov for more information).
Have a high school diploma or a General Education Development (GED) Certificate or pass an exam approved by the U.S. Department of Education.
Be enrolled or accepted for enrollment as a regular student working toward a degree or certificate in an eligible program at a school that participates in the federal student aid programs.
Not have a drug conviction for an offense that occurred while you were receiving federal student aid (such as grants, loans, or work-study)
Also:

You must not owe a refund on a federal grant or be in default on a federal student loan.
You must demostrate financial need (except for unsubsidized Stafford Loans).
Other requirements may apply. Contact your school’s financial aid office for more information.

So, you see, I was quite correct about the PELL.

If she is a dependent, being claimed by a parent as a student, she can't even get a Stafford Loan.

If you are going to make these kinds of arguments, do your homework so you stop looking ridiculous.

Mom of 3,

These are tough times for you right now. My heart goes out to you because Fighting Dad is in a war zone. My son came back from Afghanistan safe, and for that I am endlessly grateful to the men in his unit, to Afghanis who didn't take the shot when they could have, to the guys that were such lousy shots they missed, and to God for answering my prayers. The only person I can imagine being more worried than you right now, is Fighting Dad, and he's 6,000 miles away and can't do anything to ease your load except send his love and confidence in you.

I am just not going to say anything further here that is going to exacerbate your already difficult situation. You and Fighting Dad have my prayers, and I hope he comes home to you safe and sound as when you sent him off to Iraq.

I hope, too, that you use the time that he is away to heal the family and that he is able to return home where all his family is there for him and that an atmosphere of love prevails and helps him get back into his life.

Fighting Dad needs all the support all of us can give him right now so that he can stay focused on staying safe. My prayers for his safe return.

Responder wrote:

<quoted text>
Read the Grant rules, and if she attended a college prior to a community college, she is supposed to tell them that. Also, if she is a dependent, she must give both parents' income - custodial and absent parent. Since dad claims what he makes as income, there is no reason for the mistake to do it or her mother.
I think it is very important to clarify too, on that point we agree. You want to create a picture that has all kinds of Catch 22s for your Fighting Dad husband, but it just is not that way. Besides, if she goes to Community College and makes the grade, it make your argument moot, right? You want her to get good grades, right? That's what you have been harping on here. So if she does, you can be happy? C'mon, let's hear you say that you would be happy if she got good grades. Because if she bombs out there too, how many options do you think she has left - that is if we go by your very flawed "what if" scenario.
The point continues to be that you are really angry about paying for this young woman. Obviously she was there before you were, and he was paying for her when you came along. So why did you marry this guy if this whole thing causes you such distress? I mean I am really curious, you hate this situation. Why did you go into it and why are you still there?

Now I'm going to tell you what I know. I know that my stepdaughter got put on academic probabtion or dismissed a total of 3 times. I know after the 3rd time, we went to court and she still had her Pell Grant I also know that it was a pattern of, get suspended, transfer to community college for a semester, pass a semester, go back to the University, get suspended, go back to the community college...this happened 3 times. All the time receiving the Pell Grant. She did not put her father down as income. It's not that I'm not informed on the rules, it's that I have seen this happen first hand. Would I be surprised to find out that her mom helped her to manipulate the system or lied to get the funding...not really. I am not out to get anyone. I'm not sure why you think I am. Yes, I am irritated...extremely as is my husband. Please try to understand that this isn't about not wanting to help through college, it's about watching someone continue to school flop...just to continue getting support. Can you at least admit that maybe we have a situation here where the child and her mom aren't doing the right thing? My husband is a wonderful man...he cares about people and he is a wonderful father, that is why I married him. If he hadn't been a good father to his daughter, I would have walked away, that would have been a huge red flag to me. Of course I knew he was paying child support, that was his responsibility. I have watched my husband, the big bad fighting dad, cry over this situation...feeling lost because he had his hand completely tied as to how to parent anymore. Yes, I support my husband, I love him and admire him and would marry him again tomorrow. By the way, when this started happening, my husband set up an appointment with a counselor for him and his daughter and she went 2 times and when the counselor said 1 thing she didn't like...she never came back. My husband did keep going and the counselor readily admitted to him that until his daughter was out of her mother's home they would probably never be able to have a normal relationship...this isn't a man who doesn't care. I thank you for your comments about war, you are very correct, this is a very tense and hard time for us all. I appreciate you recognizing that.

Responder wrote:

<quoted text>
Here are the first rules of eligibility for FAFSA - which includes PELL - and I think you will find I am correct. IF your daughter had PELL previously, and she bombed out of school or did not get the credit hours - SHE OWES the money for the grant back! They keep good track of those things.
If she did not financialy qualify for PELL before, then she won't qualify at Community College either. If she doesn't make the grade, she bombs out. So you are talking about as much as a semester - or less if she gets kicked out for bad grades - of child support?
Here are the rules:
Who is eligible to receive Federal Student Aid?
To receive federal student aid, you must meet certain requirements. You must:
Be a U.S. citizen or eligible non-citizen
Have a valid Social Security Number (unless you’re from the Republic of the Marshall Islands, the Federated States of Micronesia, or the Republic of Palau).
Register with Selective Service if you are male and 18 to 25 years of age (go to www.sss.gov for more information).
Have a high school diploma or a General Education Development (GED) Certificate or pass an exam approved by the U.S. Department of Education.
Be enrolled or accepted for enrollment as a regular student working toward a degree or certificate in an eligible program at a school that participates in the federal student aid programs.
Not have a drug conviction for an offense that occurred while you were receiving federal student aid (such as grants, loans, or work-study)
Also:
You must not owe a refund on a federal grant or be in default on a federal student loan.
You must demostrate financial need (except for unsubsidized Stafford Loans).
Other requirements may apply. Contact your school’s financial aid office for more information.
So, you see, I was quite correct about the PELL.

I had a friend in college who dropped out and had to pay her Pell back. I was under the same assumption prior to our situation. I don't think it works the same anymore...it hasn't in my stepdaughter's case.

Responder wrote:

<quoted text>
Here are the first rules of eligibility for FAFSA - which includes PELL - and I think you will find I am correct. IF your daughter had PELL previously, and she bombed out of school or did not get the credit hours - SHE OWES the money for the grant back! They keep good track of those things.
If she did not financialy qualify for PELL before, then she won't qualify at Community College either. If she doesn't make the grade, she bombs out. So you are talking about as much as a semester - or less if she gets kicked out for bad grades - of child support?
Here are the rules:
Who is eligible to receive Federal Student Aid?
To receive federal student aid, you must meet certain requirements. You must:
Be a U.S. citizen or eligible non-citizen
Have a valid Social Security Number (unless you’re from the Republic of the Marshall Islands, the Federated States of Micronesia, or the Republic of Palau).
Register with Selective Service if you are male and 18 to 25 years of age (go to www.sss.gov for more information).
Have a high school diploma or a General Education Development (GED) Certificate or pass an exam approved by the U.S. Department of Education.
Be enrolled or accepted for enrollment as a regular student working toward a degree or certificate in an eligible program at a school that participates in the federal student aid programs.
Not have a drug conviction for an offense that occurred while you were receiving federal student aid (such as grants, loans, or work-study)
Also:
You must not owe a refund on a federal grant or be in default on a federal student loan.
You must demostrate financial need (except for unsubsidized Stafford Loans).
Other requirements may apply. Contact your school’s financial aid office for more information.
So, you see, I was quite correct about the PELL.

Did I miss it...I don't see any grade requirements here.

Mom of 3 wrote:

<quoted text>
Did I miss it...I don't see any grade requirements here.

It works exactly the same way in your stepdaughter's case. In everyone's case, it is the same. You fail out, you have to pay it back. If that did not happen, she did not fail out or never had a Pell or student loan to bein with.

The Pell does not need to state the grade requirements, the collee or university does that. If you fail, they paid you a grant for nothing, and they are going to want it back.

If your stepdaughter failed out and has to pay it back, her mom or she may not be talking about it. It's irrelevant, so long as they pay it back.

This is what we keep coming back to, a lot of things do not equate here, which sugests there is more to the story.

Again,it is not my goal to upset you. That is not a concurrance, only respectful of your situation.

Mom of 3,

I do not know what the definition of "the right thing" is, since it varies person to person when you are dealing with issues outside of the prescribe limits of law. Then, it is usually a matter of morals, choices, and conscience.

If this youn woman continues to go to community college, then return - that is not allowed to continue either. They may do it once, but not twice. I she fails out a first, goes to CC and repairs her grades, I would be surprised if they let her back a second time. If they did, they certainly would not do it a third time.

Academic warning is not the same as an academic supsension. For a suspension, you have to plead your case and write an explanation of the circumstances that lead to your poor grades. You also have to provide an action plan, how the student is going to approach the studies differently so that he or she will find themselves in the same academic distress. If that fails too, then, normally, they're history.

What many students do not know is that they have a leeway, a period of time during which to wtihdraw from a class so that they do not fail it. In that case, if they received grant money, they have to refund that money, and reapply the next semester. There is no carryover, and the schools usually do that process.

There is no reason for your stepdaughter to fail. She can withdraw from a class before that happens. Because she has her sights set on the medical sciences, she has some very difficult courses ahead of her. Another thing students can do is to "audit" the course prior to actually taking the course for a credit. Then they know exactly what to expect and have had a run through on the professor and the materials. Auditing a course is not paid by any grant or student loan, it is cash out of the student's pocket. But it helps prepare the student for the really difficult courses, and they can audit it as many times as necessary to ensure they pass it when they take it for a credit.

Frankly, your stepdaughter sounds very motivated, very determined, very frustrated and inexperienced. She needs support and confidence in what she is trying to do, but guidance too.

I hope you will approach her differently, I hope that because Fighting Dad needs to hear good things coming from home, not more problems.

The university she attends has continued to let her back in...multiple times. I don't know about paying back the Pell for the times she has failed out but I know for a fact that she still has a Pell Grant...even after the suspensions. They were suspensions, she was not allowed to take classes and could only reapply if she went to another school and got a 2.0. Unfortuantely she is taking classes to bring up her GPA that don't transfer for any credit towards her major. She should be graduating this month but is only a Sophomore due to all the failed classes. I was under the assumption that the Pell Grants had to be paid back too, I know that's how it worked for a friend of mine who dropped out of college, but that was in the 90's. I have been very surprised at how the university continues to let her go back and forth, when I was in school it did not work that way. I think they want the tuition money and put that before anything else. I'm confused as to how I need to approach her differently, honestly you don't know how I approach her. This forum is about child suppot reform. I don't have these conversations with my stepdaughter, this is between my husband and her. I do not put in my two cents in their relationship, that is not my place. My stepdaughter and I have always had a very close relationship...I did her hair for her prom, helped her pick out clothes for school. Helped her gather things for college. We have had a wonderful relationship, but honestly, this forum isn't about any of that...it's about changing a statute. You have assumed a lot about me and my husband and 99% has been wrong. We are loving parents who believe differently than you about child support statutes but we are also parents who love our children...all of our children.

Again, I am not going to go in a direction here that exacerbates the tension you are experiencing. We stand to differ on the subject of child support. It is simple as that.

I am a staunch supporter that unconditional love - which is not to say that a child's actions do not have consequences, because they do. It is to say that when the child experiences those consequences, that withholding love, encouragement and support are not withheld as punishment.

The scenario you are describing for you daughter's college grades and attendance are an exception, not a rule. Therefore, there is more to the story than we know. Perhaps she has a learning disability, or perhaps she has an emotional/psychological impediment that causes the college to work with her.

The bottom line is that you do not appear to know that answer. The law says your husband must pay. Perhaps he can just accept that this whole business of staying in college is about her, not him, and so long as she is staying in there, the law says he pays and he does.

You say you both love and support. Then do that, and let the anger that is shown here about paying go. Just open the window and let it go, follow the law and see how it all turns out. Give yourselves a break.

Responder wrote:

Again, I am not going to go in a direction here that exacerbates the tension you are experiencing. We stand to differ on the subject of child support. It is simple as that.
I am a staunch supporter that unconditional love - which is not to say that a child's actions do not have consequences, because they do. It is to say that when the child experiences those consequences, that withholding love, encouragement and support are not withheld as punishment.
The scenario you are describing for you daughter's college grades and attendance are an exception, not a rule. Therefore, there is more to the story than we know. Perhaps she has a learning disability, or perhaps she has an emotional/psychological impediment that causes the college to work with her.
The bottom line is that you do not appear to know that answer. The law says your husband must pay. Perhaps he can just accept that this whole business of staying in college is about her, not him, and so long as she is staying in there, the law says he pays and he does.
You say you both love and support. Then do that, and let the anger that is shown here about paying go. Just open the window and let it go, follow the law and see how it all turns out. Give yourselves a break.

No anger...if this was about not wanting to pay support, we wouldn't be commenting at all...we are not ordered to pay support anymore, she's 22. By the way, you'll be surprised to know that we do still help her and provide her with 2 insurances, not because we're required to, but because we want to.

Mom of 3 wrote:

<quoted text>
No anger...if this was about not wanting to pay support, we wouldn't be commenting at all...we are not ordered to pay support anymore, she's 22. By the way, you'll be surprised to know that we do still help her and provide her with 2 insurances, not because we're required to, but because we want to.

That is good. Insurance is necessary, and it is good that you continue to help her. It appears Fighting Dad is benefitting from the counseling, and maybe she'll go back to it with him.

There are clearly dynamics going on that are not atypical of these kinds of situations. I wish you luck, I hope she makes it through her studies. Sounds like she has a lot of her dad in her.

Responder wrote:

There are clearly dynamics going on that are not atypical of these kinds of situations. I wish you luck, I hope she makes it through her studies. Sounds like she has a lot of her dad in her.

You are right Responder, there are dynamics that are not atypical...as the law reads, it lumps all NCP in the same boat. All might just be surprised that most cases are atypical. No one wants to give the NCP the benefit of the doubt. Child support should cease when the child turns 18 or graduates from high school. Again, most NCP & CP will help with college, but should not be forced. You seem to do a lot of "research" what type of support is out there for a child who's Social Security death benefits cease when they turn 18 or graduate from high school, if they choose to attend college? That is my only gripe, Social Security stops, then why shouldn't child support...what makes the child of divorce different from a child who as lost a parent? Are they more special? I have been on all 3 sides of this issue, received CS, child has lost a parent, and paying CS. CS is necessary and should be paid, but only until the child is 18 or graduates from high school. Any help with my question?