City leaders discuss smoking ban in parks

Judged:

Gloria Kelley wrote:

I spend the entire summer in the Traverse City area and I am amazed that the smoking ban hasn'be been imposed on restuarants. There is no way you can walk into a restaurant and not smell the smoke coming from the smoking section. My friends and I eat out often and we will not patronize a restaurant that allows it's patrons to smoke. Give us some clean are while we're eating. Even Nevada has a ban on smoking.

A comic once suggested a restaurant with a smoking section was like a swimming pool with a peeing section.

The entire situation is backwards, but tradition and entrenched sense of entitlement keep people from seeing that.

There should, given the knowledge of SHS as a hazard, the relative numbers of smokers vs nonsmokers, etc, be a total ban on smoking outside of certain places. All the legislation should be aimed at determining how many places smoking should be permitted, and which they should be.

If an area is intended for use by both smokers and nonsmokers--such as a park or sidewalk--it should not be legal to smoke there. There are plenty of alternative sources of nicotine if an addict can't hold off.

This approach would go far to deal with the liter problem as well, and the image of smoking would become far less common and "normalized".

“Everybody gets one (L)”

Since: Apr 09

1,574

Judged:

Gloria Kelley wrote:

I spend the entire summer in the Traverse City area and I am amazed that the smoking ban hasn'be been imposed on restuarants. There is no way you can walk into a restaurant and not smell the smoke coming from the smoking section. My friends and I eat out often and we will not patronize a restaurant that allows it's patrons to smoke. Give us some clean are while we're eating. Even Nevada has a ban on smoking.

Their are quite a few restuarants that are smoke free... go to them.. Don't push your views on others plz

“Everybody gets one (L)”

Since: Apr 09

1,574

mazed wrote:

<quoted text>
A comic once suggested a restaurant with a smoking section was like a swimming pool with a peeing section.
The entire situation is backwards, but tradition and entrenched sense of entitlement keep people from seeing that.
There should, given the knowledge of SHS as a hazard, the relative numbers of smokers vs nonsmokers, etc, be a total ban on smoking outside of certain places. All the legislation should be aimed at determining how many places smoking should be permitted, and which they should be.
If an area is intended for use by both smokers and nonsmokers--such as a park or sidewalk--it should not be legal to smoke there. There are plenty of alternative sources of nicotine if an addict can't hold off.
This approach would go far to deal with the liter problem as well, and the image of smoking would become far less common and "normalized".

Soooo let the public know this info... And let them go to a Non-smoking restuarant...

Since: Aug 08

4,340

Golden Valley,Az.

Judged:

Lone Goat wrote:

<quoted text>
Soooo let the public know this info... And let them go to a Non-smoking restuarant...

You have to understand that they want every where non smoking including your home. They do not care how many business they close or how many jobs are lost. They do not care if they are helping to destroy private property rights. I knew of several non smoking places before the bans that went out of business for the lack of customers. They just want all smoking stopped even if they have to kill to do it. ASH members went to jail for that reason.

Mazed

Lone Goat wrote:

<quoted text>
Soooo let the public know this info... And let them go to a Non-smoking restuarant...

Ah, but what if they want to go to the park? Or take a walk on the sidewalk?

Nonsmokers should NOT be banished to whatever nonsmoking venues there are. Smokers can be in a nonsmoking area and not smoke--they are still "smokers". Nonsmokers can NOT go into a smoking area and remain anything closer to their choice than "passive smokers". Far more people have chosen to be nonsmokers than have chosen to be smokers--including many smokers who found themselves unable to break the addiction.

It is the act of smoking that should be restricted to specific locations, not refraining from that act. If that were the situation, then nonsmokers could indeed just avoid places where people smoke. Until that is the case, the suggestion that nonsmokers have that option is preposterous.

Since: Aug 08

4,340

Golden Valley,Az.

Judged:

Mazed wrote:

<quoted text>
Ah, but what if they want to go to the park? Or take a walk on the sidewalk?
Nonsmokers should NOT be banished to whatever nonsmoking venues there are. Smokers can be in a nonsmoking area and not smoke--they are still "smokers". Nonsmokers can NOT go into a smoking area and remain anything closer to their choice than "passive smokers". Far more people have chosen to be nonsmokers than have chosen to be smokers--including many smokers who found themselves unable to break the addiction.
It is the act of smoking that should be restricted to specific locations, not refraining from that act. If that were the situation, then nonsmokers could indeed just avoid places where people smoke. Until that is the case, the suggestion that nonsmokers have that option is preposterous.

Take a walk in the park or side walk we get to breath car exhaust which can kill in minutes. We get to breath all the pollutants from the 300 million people are producing.

“Everybody gets one (L)”

Since: Apr 09

1,574

Judged:

Mazed wrote:

<quoted text>
Ah, but what if they want to go to the park? Or take a walk on the sidewalk?

Think about your question.... it's OUTSIDE... if the wind doesn't take it away, their is space to move...

Mazed

Judged:

Lone Goat wrote:

<quoted text>
Think about your question.... it's OUTSIDE... if the wind doesn't take it away, their is space to move...

Reality check time. We are talking about randomly generated, randomly moving, 45' circles within which representative particulates are at elevated levels in at least one direction and possibly in more if the wind is shifting or if it is relatively calm.

By the time a nonsmoker has been affected enough to become aware of the health threat--even assuming that only one such circle is in the area--it is too late to move away to avoid being affected.

SHS is a health threat. Abstinence from smoking is not. SHS should be limited to specific locales with abstinence the norm, not the other way around.

Since: Aug 08

4,340

Golden Valley,Az.

Mazed wrote:

<quoted text>
Reality check time. We are talking about randomly generated, randomly moving, 45' circles within which representative particulates are at elevated levels in at least one direction and possibly in more if the wind is shifting or if it is relatively calm.
By the time a nonsmoker has been affected enough to become aware of the health threat--even assuming that only one such circle is in the area--it is too late to move away to avoid being affected.
SHS is a health threat. Abstinence from smoking is not. SHS should be limited to specific locales with abstinence the norm, not the other way around.

I have given you links that say SHS is NOT harmful. If it was so harmful how did all the baby boomers survive, and their parents and their parents. SHS is down 75% and yet all the so called smoking diseases keep going up as much as 500%. Oh yea, smoking is down 50%.

Mazed

azmac wrote:

<quoted text>
I have given you links that say SHS is NOT harmful. If it was so harmful how did all the baby boomers survive, and their parents and their parents. SHS is down 75% and yet all the so called smoking diseases keep going up as much as 500%. Oh yea, smoking is down 50%.

And, for a time, I took the time to refute all your lies as they came along. I no longer see any point, as your addiction-driven need for blind self-rationalization precludes comprehension.

I have the advantage of KNOWING better from personal experience as well as access to scientific studies. Look hard enough and you can find links to claims that the world really IS flat and that you WILL fall off the edge if you sail out of sight.

Since: Aug 08

4,340

Golden Valley,Az.

Mazed wrote:

<quoted text>
And, for a time, I took the time to refute all your lies as they came along. I no longer see any point, as your addiction-driven need for blind self-rationalization precludes comprehension.
I have the advantage of KNOWING better from personal experience as well as access to scientific studies. Look hard enough and you can find links to claims that the world really IS flat and that you WILL fall off the edge if you sail out of sight.

I grew up in the 50s, when almost all smoked stronger unfiltered cigarettes. I have seen what people died of then and what people are dying of today. I have met Thousands of people, worked for a very large company ( 200,000) and seen who got sick and of what. Who has died and of what. Who smoked and did not smoke. So you talk about personal experience, I have it. I see who is sick in my community. I just attended a meeting yesterday with many people. Seen who was ill and who smoked and did not smoke, some thing I look for now days. What is being said about smoking today is not true. If you knew history at all, you would know busy bodies like you rise up now and then and are always put down. There are groups who want to abolish meat, cell phones, video games,cars, fast foods, all dangerous sports, etc. You name it some one is against it. If it can make someone one rich to ban it or tax it then it will happen. People like you who help promote this kind of crap. You need to learn about your country and what your congressmen are doing. They are voting your rights away.

Mazed

azmac wrote:

<quoted text>
I grew up in the 50s,

Your posts suggest otherwise, date notwithstanding.

Since: Aug 08

4,340

Golden Valley,Az.

Mazed wrote:

<quoted text>
Your posts suggest otherwise, date notwithstanding.

I am 66 you figure it out. Why I know what we have already lost. I grew up when you did not need a hunting or fishing license, Permits to build on your property. Business did not have all the restrictions and they and the people did just great. If a place was dirty, the food no good, then they went out of business. It was a time when the adults could make their own choices, did not need a nanny government to make it for them. It was a time when we got to keep most of our wages. It was a time we did not have millions with all the so called smoking diseases, there were not hundreds walking around on oxygen like today. Diabetes was unheard of, did not come around until all the pollution started showing up. Never met anyone with lung cancer, today I know hundreds just in my small area. Today I am watching our country being sold out and people like you are helping do it. Our freedom and rights are almost gone and people like you are to ignorant to see it.

Gloria Kelley

Las Vegas, NV

azmac wrote:

<quoted text>
I am 66 you figure it out. Why I know what we have already lost. I grew up when you did not need a hunting or fishing license, Permits to build on your property. Business did not have all the restrictions and they and the people did just great. If a place was dirty, the food no good, then they went out of business. It was a time when the adults could make their own choices, did not need a nanny government to make it for them. It was a time when we got to keep most of our wages. It was a time we did not have millions with all the so called smoking diseases, there were not hundreds walking around on oxygen like today. Diabetes was unheard of, did not come around until all the pollution started showing up. Never met anyone with lung cancer, today I know hundreds just in my small area. Today I am watching our country being sold out and people like you are helping do it. Our freedom and rights are almost gone and people like you are to ignorant to see it.

If you didn't see any cases of lung disease, if you think diabetes has anything to do with air pollution, and if you think that we didn't have people with smoking related illnesses, then you must have been walking around in a daze. These things are not new to the recent decades, they always existed. I'm older than you are and I saw the things you say you didn't see. It is because they discovered that smoking was the major cause of lung cancer, and the the air pollution contributed to many respiratory diseases that we have laws governing their the use to protect the public.
I am not against smoking by those who choose to do it. I smoked for 35 years so I understand the need to smoke. I will defend their right to smoke if they choose and certainly no one is saying they can't smoke in their own homes. I don't know where that came from. We have no right to tell smokers they can't smoke. Period.
What I AM against is MY right NOT to have YOU blow smoke in my face. You choose to smoke, I don't. All I'm asking, all anyone is asking is that you consider the feelings of those who don't smoke. Many people have health issues and smoke only aggravates those issues. No one has the right to offend or put someone at risk just to satisfy their habit. Smoke if you will, and I think you have that right, but keep your smoke out of my face. Why should I breathe your smoke in a restaurant? You can go outside and have your cigarette, but I can't go outside to eat my dinner. I have the right to eat in a clean-air environment.
NO ONE is asking you to stop smoking so please stop being so defensive and try to see the non-smokers' side of this issue. Do I have the right to spray water in your face? Why not?

“Everybody gets one (L)”

Since: Apr 09

1,574

Mazed wrote:

<quoted text>
Your posts suggest otherwise, date notwithstanding.

Dodge skills: you have them....

Since: Aug 08

4,340

Golden Valley,Az.

Gloria Kelley wrote:

<quoted text>
If you didn't see any cases of lung disease, if you think diabetes has anything to do with air pollution, and if you think that we didn't have people with smoking related illnesses, then you must have been walking around in a daze. These things are not new to the recent decades, they always existed. I'm older than you are and I saw the things you say you didn't see. It is because they discovered that smoking was the major cause of lung cancer, and the the air pollution contributed to many respiratory diseases that we have laws governing their the use to protect the public.
I am not against smoking by those who choose to do it. I smoked for 35 years so I understand the need to smoke. I will defend their right to smoke if they choose and certainly no one is saying they can't smoke in their own homes. I don't know where that came from. We have no right to tell smokers they can't smoke. Period.
What I AM against is MY right NOT to have YOU blow smoke in my face. You choose to smoke, I don't. All I'm asking, all anyone is asking is that you consider the feelings of those who don't smoke. Many people have health issues and smoke only aggravates those issues. No one has the right to offend or put someone at risk just to satisfy their habit. Smoke if you will, and I think you have that right, but keep your smoke out of my face. Why should I breathe your smoke in a restaurant? You can go outside and have your cigarette, but I can't go outside to eat my dinner. I have the right to eat in a clean-air environment.
NO ONE is asking you to stop smoking so please stop being so defensive and try to see the non-smokers' side of this issue. Do I have the right to spray water in your face? Why not?

I did not say they were not around, I said they were not around like today. When all most all smoked you did not see hundreds walking around with all the so called smoker diseases like today. My nephew had diabetes from the drinking water in riverside CA. as did thousands of other kids at the time, the water was polluted.
I also have issues with the lies put out about smoking, I have issues with the smoking bans and high taxes which are against our constitution and what used to be our form of government. I have issues with smoking bans taking away private property rights. I have issues with any thing that goes against our constitution. Which is about 98% of what comes out of our government today. Learn about the constitution and about our country, you are about to lose it very soon.

http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/arti...

http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/c2009/cbarchi...

2/3 of all cancer deaths are non smokers
Smokers hold all the longevity records.
No such thing as clean air. One car puts out 7.7 tons of pollution a year, 214 million cars on the road. That is 33 pounds of pollution for every person in this country to breath per day or 6 tons a year. Riding in a car is like riding with millions of smokers all at the same time. Car exhaust can kill in minutes. Never heard of anyone dropping dead from SHS in minutes.

“Everybody gets one (L)”

Since: Apr 09

1,574