Central Church of Christ in Huntsville Alabama

Saban fan wrote:

<quoted text>
Please read #1279.
My answer was given in the second sentance.
Are you actually reading my posts?

What you are actually saying is that that they had the Holy Spirit but still were not saved until they were water baptized.

This is amazing considering that you teach that the Spirit is not given until after h20 is applied. Why is it that God has so many exceptions to your rules?

God saved the ot saints without water but you will say that is an exception, they were under the ot law system. How many ways is there to salvation?

Ronnie wrote:
Ronnie wrote:
<quoted text>
Your actions and words clearly say that every good baptist or anyone not in your church is going to hell. I call that a lie and it is obvious. Only cults do that.
Saban fan:
You are saying that. Not me. I am not the judge. Do you think you are?
Are you willing to say before this group and God that All believers are going to hell except for you and your supposedly true church? In other words Are the baptist true Christians?
You my friend are hiding from your church's terrible superiority complex.
I spent many years in your church, there is no way you can truthfully say I am lying.

Saban fan:
It is a submission complex. The only person strutting around and acting superior on this thread is Ronnie.

Ronnie:
Hey folks, look here. He did not deny the truth that he believes you are going to hell because you are not in his denomination. Told you so!

Ronnie wrote:

Ronnie wrote:
Ronnie wrote:
<quoted text>
Your actions and words clearly say that every good baptist or anyone not in your church is going to hell. I call that a lie and it is obvious. Only cults do that.
Saban fan:
You are saying that. Not me. I am not the judge. Do you think you are?
Are you willing to say before this group and God that All believers are going to hell except for you and your supposedly true church? In other words Are the baptist true Christians?
You my friend are hiding from your church's terrible superiority complex.
I spent many years in your church, there is no way you can truthfully say I am lying.
Saban fan:
It is a submission complex. The only person strutting around and acting superior on this thread is Ronnie.
Ronnie:
Hey folks, look here. He did not deny the truth that he believes you are going to hell because you are not in his denomination. Told you so!

I'm not sure that any division will take you down the straight and narrow path. Do you have evidence that dividing Christ's body can guarantee your ticket punched?

I am a member of Christ's body, not a division of it. You don't want to understand. You continue to stick to your lie, Ronnie.

Ronnie wrote:

<quoted text>
What you are actually saying is that that they had the Holy Spirit but still were not saved until they were water baptized.
This is amazing considering that you teach that the Spirit is not given until after h20 is applied. Why is it that God has so many exceptions to your rules?
God saved the ot saints without water but you will say that is an exception, they were under the ot law system. How many ways is there to salvation?

First of all you are placing words in my mouth again. I do find it interesting that they were still baptized and AFTER the baptism they rejoiced BECAUSE THEY HAD BELIEVED.

Not my rules. This spirit baptism only occours with Cornelieus' family and the apostles unless you can give me scripture showing other instances of it...?.. There were very good reasons for Cornelieus' and the apostles conversions to be unique. They served a purpose!

Are you hydrophobic?

I don't love water myself, but I love the Lord that has commanded me to get in the water. He has His reasons for His commandments. I just follow them. If you don't like it take it up with Him.

Do you really think there are no differences from the old to the new? That we could just worship as they were commanded in the old law and be OK today?...Really?!

How could those under the Old Law have been baptized into Christ's death to rise again to be in His body when Christ's life, death, burial and resurrection had yet taken place?!

Ronnie, get a clue. This is pitiful, mushy, worthless drivel you are standing on. It doesn't make sense. It is man made and does not stand up to scrutiny.

Saban fan wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm not sure that any division will take you down the straight and narrow path. Do you have evidence that dividing Christ's body can guarantee your ticket punched?
I am a member of Christ's body, not a division of it. You don't want to understand. You continue to stick to your lie, Ronnie.

I'm not looking for a ticket as you are. Jesus is my savior God is my Father and the Holy Spirit is my guide.

You, my friend are the one creating divisions. Your divisive culture has placed you on the outer fringes of the kingdom as you seek to keep it for yourself. God is not pleased with that!!!

Ronnie wrote:

<quoted text>
I'm not looking for a ticket as you are. Jesus is my savior God is my Father and the Holy Spirit is my guide.
You, my friend are the one creating divisions. Your divisive culture has placed you on the outer fringes of the kingdom as you seek to keep it for yourself. God is not pleased with that!!!

Find me a scripture that tells me that God is not pleased with me trying my hardest to submit to His will and not the will of men.

Find it!!...You seem to know what God thinks...show me!

Next, show me the scriptures that prove how pleased God is with denominations (divisions), instruments in worship, two baptisms etc...

Or, just ignore these two questions as you have ignored several others over the past 30 or so posts...Don't think those go unnoticed.

You have no answers that can withstand truth when Truth is the subject, Ronnie.

Find me a scripture that tells me that God is not pleased with me trying my hardest to submit to His will and not the will of men.

Find it!!...You seem to know what God thinks...show me!

Ronnie:
Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

Galatians 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Saban Fan:
Next, show me the scriptures that prove how pleased God is with denominations (divisions), instruments in worship, two baptisms etc...

Ronnie:
This is water baptism:1 Peter 3:21
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

This is baptism with the Spirit:
Acts 8:16
because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 10:47
Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."

rist all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ,

Saban fan:
Or, just ignore these two questions as you have ignored several others over the past 30 or so posts...Don't think those go unnoticed.

You have no answers that can withstand truth when Truth is the subject, Ronnie.

Ronnie:
There is no salvation without the involvement of the Holy Spirit.

You have rejected this before, So I'm convinced you will reject them again.

There is something you fail to understand.

The issue is that you can never try hard enough, it is not possible for you (in your own strength) to do enough to satisfy the righteous demands of law. Only Jesus can do that, we will always fall short. Every person on the earth is a sinner in need of the very thing we do not possess, which is righteousness. When Jesus died on the cross his righteousness became our righteounsess by faith in him.

Eph 2:8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 5:15
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!

Here is the deal: We have earned death and separation from God, it is our wages. But the gift is different it came by grace and now no works is acceptable before God so that none of us can say we are better at obeying than the next person. This is in reference to the gift of life. After we recieve the gift we will have been changed (regenerated). We are now responsible for living out our faith which is marked by our good works.

Eph 2:10For we (now) are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. The now is my emphasis.

Ronnie wrote:

Find me a scripture that tells me that God is not pleased with me trying my hardest to submit to His will and not the will of men.
Find it!!...You seem to know what God thinks...show me!
Ronnie:
Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?
2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
Galatians 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
Saban Fan:
Next, show me the scriptures that prove how pleased God is with denominations (divisions), instruments in worship, two baptisms etc...
Ronnie:
This is water baptism:1 Peter 3:21
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ
This is baptism with the Spirit:
Acts 8:16
because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 10:47
Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."
rist all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ,
Saban fan:
Or, just ignore these two questions as you have ignored several others over the past 30 or so posts...Don't think those go unnoticed.
You have no answers that can withstand truth when Truth is the subject, Ronnie.
Ronnie:
There is no salvation without the involvement of the Holy Spirit.
You have rejected this before, So I'm convinced you will reject them again.

Gal. 3:3 was written to the Galatian christians that had begun their life in Christ by believing, trusting and obeying the gospel of Christ. Now they were trying to grow spiritually by the Law of Moses. this was foolish. The spirit referred to life in christ. The flesh referred to living by the law of Moses without Christ.

In 2 Thess. 2:13 Paul felt obligated to give thanks to God for the Christians in Thessalonica.

Do you think I am downplaying the Holy Spirit and the fact that the Spirit dwells in christians? I am not.

In Gal. 5:4 those who continued to insist upon circumcision and obeying the Law of Moses as a means of slavation had apostatized from the truth of the gospel. They are severed from Christ. One cannot be saved in two ways, by Christ and the Law of Moses.

You are completely mis-applying and mis-quoting these verses from their intended context. I am in mo way teaching that we should stick to the Law of Moses, rather I am pointing to the new covenant and to the proper form of worship as taught by Jesus and the disciples.

Ronnie wrote:

Find me a scripture that tells me that God is not pleased with me trying my hardest to submit to His will and not the will of men.
Find it!!...You seem to know what God thinks...show me!
Ronnie:
Galatians 3:3
Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?
2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.
Galatians 5:4
You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
Saban Fan:
Next, show me the scriptures that prove how pleased God is with denominations (divisions), instruments in worship, two baptisms etc...
Ronnie:
This is water baptism:1 Peter 3:21
and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ
This is baptism with the Spirit:
Acts 8:16
because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 10:47
Then Peter said, "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have."
rist all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ,
Saban fan:
Or, just ignore these two questions as you have ignored several others over the past 30 or so posts...Don't think those go unnoticed.
You have no answers that can withstand truth when Truth is the subject, Ronnie.
Ronnie:
There is no salvation without the involvement of the Holy Spirit.
You have rejected this before, So I'm convinced you will reject them again.

I'll cover the other verses soon but youare lying if you suggest that I have ever acted as if there is no involvement of the Holy Spirit in the Christians life. When have I ever rejected such?

Where do you invent the thoughts supposedly in my head?

Ronnie wrote:

There is something you fail to understand.
The issue is that you can never try hard enough, it is not possible for you (in your own strength) to do enough to satisfy the righteous demands of law. Only Jesus can do that, we will always fall short. Every person on the earth is a sinner in need of the very thing we do not possess, which is righteousness. When Jesus died on the cross his righteousness became our righteounsess by faith in him.
Eph 2:8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 5:15
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!
Here is the deal: We have earned death and separation from God, it is our wages. But the gift is different it came by grace and now no works is acceptable before God so that none of us can say we are better at obeying than the next person. This is in reference to the gift of life. After we recieve the gift we will have been changed (regenerated). We are now responsible for living out our faith which is marked by our good works.
Eph 2:10For we (now) are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. The now is my emphasis.

I do not attempt to follow the demands of the law... The law being spoken about throughout the New Testament is the Law of Moses!!!!!!!!!!

You are SO COMPLETELY FLAWED in your understanding of scripture.

Show me where I follow law.

YOU are the one finding instruments in the OT and bringing them to the the NEW, SO YOU may just be the one attempting to follow the law, not me! Do ya'll have incense burning in your worship too? Well, if so, that comes over from the Old Law. Do you command physical circumcision? That would to...but you cannot compare ANYTHING I do to that of the Old Law.

Continuing to accuse me of something that you are more guilty of than I will ever be. Once again, as you wag your finger at me three are pointing at you.

I do not attempt to follow the demands of the law... The law being spoken about throughout the New Testament is the Law of Moses!!!!!!!!!!

What other laws are there?

Anytime you use any law or create a law to place into the system you have violated God's plan.

Gal 3:21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.

We must not think that any law will impart life no matter which side of the cross it is found on.

What is the consistent theme of the bible from genesis to revelation? It is faith and un-belief. What do we have in common with those in the hall of faith? They believed God and their faith was reckoned to them as righteousness. Then we see them begin to walk in their faith doing righteousness.

Please do not forget that the wages of sin is death and everyone had earned death which we cannot reverse. We will be paid those wages unless a worthy sacrifice pleasing unto God is made for us.

Since we still sin we need a continuing grace, Jesus blood is sufficient to cover all our sins from beginning to end.

I have a question for you. How does God's holy Spirit live in us if we continue to sin? Does the Spirit reside in us when we are first saved and then departs each time we sin?

Then you might think on this: "Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you." 6So we say with confidence,
"The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid.
What can man do to me?"

Heb 13:7Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. 8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
9Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace,

Did you know that God said this to the OT saints also (that he would never leave us or forsake us)? God is the same today yesterday and forever. And because he never changes, all men are saved the same way. You must stop seeing the OT as a different way to be saved, because there is only one way for all of us.

The New is in the Old Concealed, the Old is in the New Revealed ...

Ronnie wrote:

I do not attempt to follow the demands of the law... The law being spoken about throughout the New Testament is the Law of Moses!!!!!!!!!!
What other laws are there?
Anytime you use any law or create a law to place into the system you have violated God's plan.
Gal 3:21Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law.
We must not think that any law will impart life no matter which side of the cross it is found on.
What is the consistent theme of the bible from genesis to revelation? It is faith and un-belief. What do we have in common with those in the hall of faith? They believed God and their faith was reckoned to them as righteousness. Then we see them begin to walk in their faith doing righteousness.
Please do not forget that the wages of sin is death and everyone had earned death which we cannot reverse. We will be paid those wages unless a worthy sacrifice pleasing unto God is made for us.
Since we still sin we need a continuing grace, Jesus blood is sufficient to cover all our sins from beginning to end.

You have suggested that i have created a law and placed it in the system. What law have I created and placed in the system?

Ronnie wrote:

I have a question for you. How does God's holy Spirit live in us if we continue to sin? Does the Spirit reside in us when we are first saved and then departs each time we sin?
Then you might think on this: "Never will I leave you;
never will I forsake you." 6So we say with confidence,
"The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid.
What can man do to me?"
Heb 13:7Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. 8Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
9Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace,
Did you know that God said this to the OT saints also (that he would never leave us or forsake us)? God is the same today yesterday and forever. And because he never changes, all men are saved the same way. You must stop seeing the OT as a different way to be saved, because there is only one way for all of us.
The New is in the Old Concealed, the Old is in the New Revealed ...

The Holy spirit is with the christian. We can grieve the Holy Spirit, but the Holy spirit still stays with a christian.

So you are holding on to the old law like the Galatians were? I'm confused...

The Old Law pointed to a better way, just like Aristotle's quote you have quoted here suggests. Now that we have the perfect way it reveals to us the many flaws of the old Law and it also shows us the fulfillment of prophesy from the old law giving us hope of the fulfillment of the prophesy we find in the new.

Saban fan wrote:

<quoted text>
The Holy spirit is with the christian. We can grieve the Holy Spirit, but the Holy spirit still stays with a christian.
So you are holding on to the old law like the Galatians were? I'm confused...
The Old Law pointed to a better way, just like Aristotle's quote you have quoted here suggests. Now that we have the perfect way it reveals to us the many flaws of the old Law and it also shows us the fulfillment of prophesy from the old law giving us hope of the fulfillment of the prophesy we find in the new.

Does this mean you believe once saved always saved? If it does then I am wrong to accuse you of law keeping.
You used the words "with the christian". By saying this do you mean that the Holy Spirit is (in) the christian?

Ronnie wrote:

<quoted text>
Does this mean you believe once saved always saved? If it does then I am wrong to accuse you of law keeping.
You used the words "with the christian". By saying this do you mean that the Holy Spirit is (in) the christian?

1st, lets see what Jesus says:

Here's just a few passages that prove a person can be in a saved state but, due to unfaithfulness and disobedience, may fall away from God's grace and end up in a lost condition:

Jesus, after asked for clarification from his disciples about the parable of the sower, said that some would receive the word with joy but have no root. They will believe for awhile and in time of temptation fall away. From this explination in Luke 8, it is clear that some people "receive the word with joy" and "believe for awhile." But the question must be asked:

FROM WHAT DO THEY FALL AWAY????? Ronnie??? Hmmmm??

On another occasion, Jesus uses a vine to illustrate this same principle. In John 15 we read "*if anyone does not abide in Me* he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."

From the text we read that abiding in christ is the only way to inherit salvation. Jesus presented the situation in which some branches at one time were "in" Him, but, due to their barrenness, the Father "takes away" those branches. Before this individual was cast out, he was obviously abiding and growing in the vine, else, why would he "wither" upon being cast out?

Matt. 18:35 shows in parable form the conditional nature of God's forgiveness. It also proves that even if a person's sins have been forgiven in the past, unless that person continues to behave in a way pleasing to the Master, he will be lost.

In Revelation 2:5 we read reprimands to the church of Ephesus for leaving their first love and what would happen if they do not repent. Same for other churches in Revelation 2:16, Revelation 3:3, Revelation 3:16. Jesus'statements to these sinful churches in Asia show that the salvation of church members was conditional upon their continued faithfulness to His commands.In Revelation 2:10 Jesus told the church at Smyrna "Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life".

WHAT IS IMPLIED TO THOSE THAT DO NOT REMAIN FAITHFUL???? Ronnie???

Ronnie wrote:

<quoted text>
Does this mean you believe once saved always saved? If it does then I am wrong to accuse you of law keeping.
You used the words "with the christian". By saying this do you mean that the Holy Spirit is (in) the christian?

2nd, lets see what Paul says:

1 Tim. 4: 1, 2, 16 we read that in latter times some will "depart from the faith" and Timothy is instructed to "continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you".

WHAT MUST BE HAPPENING BEFORE YOU DEPART FROM SOMETHING???? RONNIE???? MUST YOU BE IN BEFORE YOU DEPART? HMMMMM...?

1 Cor. 15:2 - "if you hold fast the word which I preached to you - unless you believed in vain"

In his letter to the Galatians, Paul attempted to persuade th Christians in that city not to return to the old Law of Moses. WHAT would happen to those CHRISTIANS who attempted to go back to the old Law, trusting it for salvation? Paul wrote in Gal. 5: 1-4 "...you have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; YOU HAVE FALLEN FROM GRACE."

Falling from grace is spelled out very explicitly here, Ronnie.....

1 Cor. 9:27 is an interesting assertion here too "But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become DISQUALIFIED.

Ronnie wrote:

<quoted text>
Does this mean you believe once saved always saved? If it does then I am wrong to accuse you of law keeping.
You used the words "with the christian". By saying this do you mean that the Holy Spirit is (in) the christian?

John wrote in 1 John 2:24-25 "IF" what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the son and the Father. John, in agreement with Jesus and Paul, conditioned the salvation of his readers upon their choice to abide in the doctorine that they had received.

Now,

Allow me to go ahead and answer the questions to your next post of verses:

First, HEARING and BELIEVING, mentioned in many verses such as John 5:24, are not one time actions, Ronnie. they rather describe a person who continues to hear and continues to believe (these two words in Greek are present participles that denote continuous action). Thus, whoever continues to hear and believe Jesus has everlasting life.

Another thing that goes unnoticed by many divisions is that the word believe often implies obedience that accompanies that belief. We see this in 1 Peter 2:7 "Therefore, to you who BELIEVE, He is precious; but to those who are DISOBEDIENT...." Therefore disobedience is regarded as the opposite of belief.

Hebrews 3: 18-19 illustrates the same. The "did not obey"..."because of unbelief"...Heb 4:6 says the same.

The unclean spirit believed in Jesus (Mark 1:24) yet this did not place the unclean spirit in a saved condition.

James 2: 19-20 belief has to be combined with obedience to His commands -(this is not The Law of Moses were talking about here when we discuss obedience, Ronnie)

Rom 8: 38-39 says NO OUTSIDE FORCE can seperate a faithful believer from his God. However, the verse does not say that a person cannot SEPARATE HIMSELF. If we do not walk by the Spirit, then we seperate ourselves from the love of Christ. Christ's love and grace is ALWAYS there for us we just choose reject it therefore we are separated.

Perfect harmony with all scripture, Ronnie.

You made no attempt to answer this question, instead you went on a tirade.

Try again...
Does this mean you believe once saved always saved? If it does then I am wrong to accuse you of law keeping.
You used the words "with the christian". By saying this do you mean that the Holy Spirit is (in) the christian?