Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

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Safety pins and screws are still lodged in 15-year-old Ami Ortiz's body three months after he opened a booby-trapped gift basket sent to his family.
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Frijoles

Madison, CT

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#39970
Aug 20, 2012
 

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tom wrote:
<quoted text> There is no wrong thread when Obama continues to threaten Israel.
Oh, that tired cliche again. I was wondering what your agenda was. Thanks.

Romney blew it with us Jews when he selected Ryan. End of story.

And even if he hadnt done that, he was in hot water with his comment disparaging kibbutzim as the icon example of what America should not stand for. That was a shockingly insensitive and irrelevant comment for someone who just returned from Israel, and demonstrated his willingness to throw us Jews under the bus when politically expedient.

Personally, he lost my vote why he strapped Seamus on the roof - but thats just me.

Frijoles

Madison, CT

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#39971
Aug 20, 2012
 

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tom wrote:
<quoted text> There is no wrong thread when Obama continues to threaten Israel.
The Christian Family Values Party Strikes Again!
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http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.as...

'Republican lawmaker skinny-dipped on Israel trip'

WASHINGTON - A group of Republican lawmakers and staff jumped into Israel's Lake Kinneret (Sea of Galilee) last year after a night of dining and drinking, and one freshman congressman swam naked, Republican aides confirmed late on Sunday.

The incident, first reported by Politico on Sunday, was investigated by the FBI and led Republican leaders in the House of Representatives to reprimand the 30 lawmakers on the privately funded trip.

Representative Kevin Yoder stripped naked before jumping into the Sea of Galilee after dining and drinking at a waterside restaurant in the town of Tiberias, Politico reported, citing more than a dozen sources, including eyewitnesses. Other participants, including the daughter of another congressman, swam fully clothed, while some lawmakers partially disrobed, Politico reported.

Two senior Republican aides who spoke on condition of anonymity confirmed the report's accuracy. Yoder's office was not immediately available for comment.

Politico quoted Yoder as saying in a statement about the incident that he and his wife, Brooke, joined some colleagues for dinner.

"After dinner I followed some members of Congress in a spontaneous and very brief dive into the sea and, regrettably, I jumped into the water without a swimsuit," Yoder said in the statement.

"It is my greatest honor to represent the people of Kansas in Congress and (for) any embarrassment I have caused for my colleagues and constituents, I apologize," the statement read.

The August 2011 trip was sponsored and paid for by the American Israel Educational Foundation, which is affiliated with AIPAC, an influential pro-Israel advocacy group.

Representatives Steve Southerland, Tom Reed, Ben Quayle, Jeff Denham and Michael Grimm were among the more than 20 lawmakers and staff that jumped into the Sea of Galilee, Politico said.

Senior aides to House Majority Leader Eric Cantor and House Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy also went swimming in the freshwater lake, which is where Christians believe that Jesus walked on water.

Politico quoted sources as saying that neither Cantor nor McCarthy participated in the late-night dip and Cantor later rebuked his Republican colleagues over the incident.
Frijoles

Madison, CT

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#39972
Aug 20, 2012
 
Representative Kevin Yoder, R-Kansas, reportedly shouted...
"Honey, hic, I don't think we are in Kansas anymore, hic"
...as he did the backstroke while inebriated throughout the Christian holy site. When asked the next morning to explain his antics, Yoder claimed "it was all a misunderstanding" and declared "it was really part of my re-baptism ceremony".

FNA
(Frijoles News Agency)

Since: Dec 10

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#39973
Aug 20, 2012
 
hillbillyboy wrote:
<quoted text>
You did not answer why Proverbs 31:2 also has the aramaic word "bar" used to mean "son" as well as the Psalm?
..."What, my son? and what, the son of my womb? and what, the son of my vows?"...Proverbs 31:2
You have already stated that the word bar means "purity" in Hebrew, and that we should reject the aramaic translation.
So, lets use that word bar in Proverbs 21:2 (with your translation) and see how it reads. And then we will add some supporting text with verses 3 and 4. Watch how silly the translation becomes when we use your meaning...
"What, purity, and what, purity of my womb, and what, the purity of my vows?
Give not thy strength unto women, Nor thy ways to that which destroyeth kings.
It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:"
So, simply inserting the Hebrew meaning for the aramaic word, just dont work in that scriptures, does it?
(BTW...Does one have to remind "purity" to avoid giving itself to drink and women? Why is purity then, called the male name "Lemuel" in verse 4?)
So, the only thing we can conclude from this text, is that the word bar in the scriptures here, mean son, and not purity.
Neither should we accept your take on Palm 2. That is because the scope of the Psalm is set here by verse 2.
..."The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the LORD and against his Anointed One."...Psalm 2:2
It is a Messianic Prophecy. It is about the relationship between God and his Messiah. Anyone doubt this still?
I can recommend a good website:
Does Psalm 2:12 really say "kiss the son"?
www.brithadasha.org/brit/index.php... .
BTW, does anybody here deny that Psalm 2 is a Messianic Psalm? It does specifically mention the Messiah after all.
So the fact that the NKJV has gotten around to reading the original and correcting their book is of no importance to you. You're using training wheels instead of learning the language.

You can continue posting apologetics sites - it is of no value in light of the original texts. We know from past and recent history that the church and their missionaries will stoop to any low to get their point across.

"God against the Indians" Norman Lewis
rabbee yehoshooah adam

Denver, CO

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#39974
Aug 20, 2012
 
tegods wrote:
I'm not telling you that things mean nothoing to me, but you have to have something concrete. How can you expect to say what you say without something to back it? One question at a time. What does God look like?
No rabbit holes, I got no time for rabbits.
rabbee: well it was never my falt, you were never around when G-D came to visit with me. nor is it my falt, you were never around to see me glow because of this. was it my falt, you were never around to see, the resurrection of the dead little girl, or the woman with the flesh eating virus returned to life? it is not my falt you do not match up with TheTorah, any of what i am saying. it is not my falt, that you do not seek out a knowledgable rabbee in response to this. i can only tell you about these things, that have previously transpired. your the one who don't want, to really believe it. yet i do not mind, you having doubts. but whose job is it, to prove any of this to you. since i am only in, the capacity of an advisor and counseler for now. for i am not about to over do, and try to do, G-D'S JOB, or your job. it says in TheTorah my time is coming, when G-D takes the day of rest. and i and the appointed woman, are both placed in complete and total charge.

now as to what does G-D Look like, like a well lit Double Vision Male/Female Ghost. TheGlowing HE/SHE Double IMAGE, See Through PERSONS. Just Like TheHe/She Image, that is stated given to Adam in One Body. TheSee Through Glowing Ghosts, but you can't see their naked bodies, underneath their see through glowing Rainmen. and am not sure you can comprehend, what i am trying to convey. since i mean you just about have to see, This to understant this. and if G-D wanted to reveal this to any of you, if you were without origional sin. That is G-D'S, Decision to make not mine. i do not tell G-D what to do, THEY tell me what to do, and it happens.
rabbee yehoshooah adam

Denver, CO

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#39975
Aug 20, 2012
 
Love wrote:
Happening again and again? Another chance to be redeemed?
I dont know of any teaching in the Torah that tells of this happening?
What scripture teaches this?
When I look into the scriptures, I see this message...
..."Man's days are determined; you have decreed the number of his months and have set limits he cannot exceed."...Job 14:5
..."When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing."...Psalm 146:4
I can find nothing about reincarnation in the scriptures.
rabbee: well you have not truly read TheTorah. because it tells you me and this worlds grandmoter, are to be returned to the tree. and most have heard, of this resurrection of the dead. of which adam and his mate are greatly involved in beguinning with Shet. and Parashas Noach is always day one, in TheTorah. and that G-D, is begun to give, TheWhole Torah accounting again. and it even gives you two previous seperate, accountings of me and this worlds grandmother. before HE began this one again. with TheSpirit of G-D, hovering over the face of the waters of the deep, with Noach, His Family and the 144,000 animals.

since you have been told by others, what to think, not how to think. this, is called indoctrination. and almost all religious documents today, have been re-written to suit the religion and not meant to suit G-D. This is why, the only true document i have to go by. as my only true reference to you, is an authentic Torah Scroll that you could use to verify.

G-D has kept HIS Promise, to returne both me and the woman to the tree. TheTree where We were Both, put to death on One Cross. and have been returned as adam and your grandmother seperated again. so that you all my be, all reborn again in the next Torot time. or should she be replaced, this time here in TheTorah that any of you, shall ever exist again. since you are not willing, to make this right with G-D, here in the exact same story again.
bmz

Since: Mar 08

Singapore

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#39976
Aug 20, 2012
 
hillbillyboy wrote:
<quoted text>
You did not answer why Proverbs 31:2 also has the aramaic word "bar" used to mean "son" as well as the Psalm?
..."What, my son? and what, the son of my womb? and what, the son of my vows?"...Proverbs 31:2
You have already stated that the word bar means "purity" in Hebrew, and that we should reject the aramaic translation.
So, lets use that word bar in Proverbs 21:2 (with your translation) and see how it reads. And then we will add some supporting text with verses 3 and 4. Watch how silly the translation becomes when we use your meaning...
"What, purity, and what, purity of my womb, and what, the purity of my vows?
Give not thy strength unto women, Nor thy ways to that which destroyeth kings.
It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:"
So, simply inserting the Hebrew meaning for the aramaic word, just dont work in that scriptures, does it?
(BTW...Does one have to remind "purity" to avoid giving itself to drink and women? Why is purity then, called the male name "Lemuel" in verse 4?)
So, the only thing we can conclude from this text, is that the word bar in the scriptures here, mean son, and not purity.
Neither should we accept your take on Palm 2. That is because the scope of the Psalm is set here by verse 2.
..."The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the LORD and against his Anointed One."...Psalm 2:2
It is a Messianic Prophecy. It is about the relationship between God and his Messiah. Anyone doubt this still?
I can recommend a good website:
Does Psalm 2:12 really say "kiss the son"?
www.brithadasha.org/brit/index.php... .

BTW, does anybody here deny that Psalm 2 is a Messianic Psalm? It does specifically mention the Messiah after all.
Yes, I deny that as an outsider.

Psalm 2 has nothing to do with a Messiah. It is simply an admonition or warning to the rulers, judges and kings to have fear of the LORD.

If one adds Kiss the Son, then the passage would show the Son as very petty, angry in a jiffy and full of wrath, ready to destroy. Neither Jesus nor any other Prophet fits the bill.

The verses in various versions of the OT have been forged to show a Son. The word BAR is Aramaic, not Hebrew.

If one reads the footnotes, one will come across comments "Hebrew uncertain", "Difficult Hebrew text of verses", etc.

OT versions came from the Greek and Latin Texts and yet they talk about Hebrew and find the Hebrew words difficult.

I found only two honest translations from Christian sources:

GNT: 10 Now listen to this warning, you kings; learn this lesson, you rulers of the world:
11 Serve the Lord with fear; tremble12 and bow down to him; or else his anger will be quickly aroused, and you will suddenly die. Happy are all who go to him for protection.

No kissing of son in here.

NKJV: Footnotes:

Psalm 2:12 Septuagint and Vulgate read Embrace discipline; Targum reads Receive instruction.
Psalm 2:12 Septuagint reads the Lord.

NASB FOOTNOTE: Psalm 2:12 Lit Kiss; some ancient versions read Do homage purely, or, Lay hold of instruction

What it means is that the ancient versions never had "Kiss the Son" and modern versions have forged according to the agenda of the Church.
bmz

Since: Mar 08

Singapore

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#39977
Aug 20, 2012
 
Love wrote:
Happening again and again? Another chance to be redeemed?
I dont know of any teaching in the Torah that tells of this happening?
What scripture teaches this?
When I look into the scriptures, I see this message...
..."Man's days are determined; you have decreed the number of his months and have set limits he cannot exceed."...Job 14:5
..."When their spirit departs, they return to the ground; on that very day their plans come to nothing."...Psalm 146:4
I can find nothing about reincarnation in the scriptures.
Neither did I. I could not even find incarnation in the Holy Scriptures.
hillbillyboy

Johnson City, TN

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#39978
Aug 20, 2012
 
SeasideSoon wrote:
<quoted text>So the fact that the NKJV has gotten around to reading the original and correcting their book is of no importance to you. You're using training wheels instead of learning the language.
You can continue posting apologetics sites - it is of no value in light of the original texts. We know from past and recent history that the church and their missionaries will stoop to any low to get their point across.
"God against the Indians" Norman Lewis
You still didnt address as to why Proverbs 31:2 uses the aramaic word "bar" to clearly mean "son".

How long are you going to tap dance around this question without addressing it?

Hint...Insults, quibbling, and evasions, are not the same thing as scientific or historical linguistic evidence.
hillbillyboy

Johnson City, TN

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#39979
Aug 20, 2012
 
bmz wrote:
<quoted text>
Neither did I. I could not even find incarnation in the Holy Scriptures.
Incarnation would be when Adam and Eve were formed.
hillbillyboy

Johnson City, TN

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#39980
Aug 20, 2012
 
bmz wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, I deny that as an outsider.
Psalm 2 has nothing to do with a Messiah. It is simply an admonition or warning to the rulers, judges and kings to have fear of the LORD.
If one adds Kiss the Son, then the passage would show the Son as very petty, angry in a jiffy and full of wrath, ready to destroy. Neither Jesus nor any other Prophet fits the bill.
The verses in various versions of the OT have been forged to show a Son. The word BAR is Aramaic, not Hebrew.
If one reads the footnotes, one will come across comments "Hebrew uncertain", "Difficult Hebrew text of verses", etc.
OT versions came from the Greek and Latin Texts and yet they talk about Hebrew and find the Hebrew words difficult.
I found only two honest translations from Christian sources:
GNT: 10 Now listen to this warning, you kings; learn this lesson, you rulers of the world:
11 Serve the Lord with fear; tremble12 and bow down to him; or else his anger will be quickly aroused, and you will suddenly die. Happy are all who go to him for protection.
No kissing of son in here.
NKJV: Footnotes:
Psalm 2:12 Septuagint and Vulgate read Embrace discipline; Targum reads Receive instruction.
Psalm 2:12 Septuagint reads the Lord.
NASB FOOTNOTE: Psalm 2:12 Lit Kiss; some ancient versions read Do homage purely, or, Lay hold of instruction
What it means is that the ancient versions never had "Kiss the Son" and modern versions have forged according to the agenda of the Church.
If you deny it is a Messianic Psalm, then what about this part?

"The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the LORD and against his Anointed One."...Psalm 2:2

The term "Anointed One" means Messiah. That is what it is about.

Do you deny that the text that mentions the Anointed One, is Messianic?
Frijoles

Madison, CT

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#39982
Aug 20, 2012
 
hillbillyboy wrote:
<quoted text>
If you deny it is a Messianic Psalm, then what about this part?
"The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the LORD and against his Anointed One."...Psalm 2:2
The term "Anointed One" means Messiah. That is what it is about.
Do you deny that the text that mentions the Anointed One, is Messianic?
The anoited on means anoited one. The baggage you bring to that term is from your background. Anoited one to a Hebrew reader does not read "Jesus". It does not read "Jesus is Gods son". It does not read "Jesus has risen". All of that you impute on the word.
Frijoles

Madison, CT

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#39983
Aug 20, 2012
 
bmz wrote:
<quoted text>
Neither did I. I could not even find incarnation in the Holy Scriptures.
The evangelicists take great pain to claim they have found the word "son" in the Hebrew, but yet they forget the fact that NOWHERE in any of the Hebrew Scriptures (tanakh) does it define a Jesus figure as God son. That stuff all came later with the NT.
rabbee yehoshooah adam

Denver, CO

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#39984
Aug 20, 2012
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
The evangelicists take great pain to claim they have found the word "son" in the Hebrew, but yet they forget the fact that NOWHERE in any of the Hebrew Scriptures (tanakh) does it define a Jesus figure as God son. That stuff all came later with the NT.
rabbee: G-D made Adam in OUR IMAGE. HE And She G-D made Them. in this world that does not want to understand. understand that jesus has never been one of Adam's Names or titles, either before seperation or after seperation. or that eve has never been, the name of the woman. there isn't even a woman by that name, mentioned in TheWhole Torah Scroll. so it is a deceptive myth, from the clever subtle beasts of the fields. get you to tell one lie, to make all their other lies easier to believe.
rabbee yehoshooah adam

Denver, CO

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#39985
Aug 20, 2012
 
bmz wrote:
<quoted text>
Neither did I. I could not even find incarnation in the Holy Scriptures.
rabbee: "you shall not prostrate yourself to them nor worship them, for IAM HaShem*, your G-D - a jealous G-D, WHO visits the sins of fathers upon children to the third and fourth generation, for my enemies; but WHO knows kindness for thousands [of generations] to those who love ME and observe MY commandments."
tom

Howell, NJ

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#39986
Aug 20, 2012
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
The Christian Family Values Party Strikes Again!
----------
http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.as...
'Republican lawmaker skinny-dipped on Israel trip'
WASHINGTON - A group of Republican lawmakers and staff jumped into Israel's Lake Kinneret (Sea of Galilee) last year after a night of dining and drinking, and one freshman congressman swam naked, Republican aides confirmed late on Sunday.
The incident, first reported by Politico on Sunday, was investigated by the FBI and led Republican leaders in the House of Representatives to reprimand the 30 lawmakers on the privately funded trip.
Representative Kevin Yoder stripped naked before jumping into the Sea of Galilee after dining and drinking at a waterside restaurant in the town of Tiberias, Politico reported, citing more than a dozen sources, including eyewitnesses. Other participants, including the daughter of another congressman, swam fully clothed, while some lawmakers partially disrobed, Politico reported.
Two senior Republican aides who spoke on condition of anonymity confirmed the report's accuracy. Yoder's office was not immediately available for comment.
Politico quoted Yoder as saying in a statement about the incident that he and his wife, Brooke, joined some colleagues for dinner.
"After dinner I followed some members of Congress in a spontaneous and very brief dive into the sea and, regrettably, I jumped into the water without a swimsuit," Yoder said in the statement.
"It is my greatest honor to represent the people of Kansas in Congress and (for) any embarrassment I have caused for my colleagues and constituents, I apologize," the statement read.
The August 2011 trip was sponsored and paid for by the American Israel Educational Foundation, which is affiliated with AIPAC, an influential pro-Israel advocacy group.
Representatives Steve Southerland, Tom Reed, Ben Quayle, Jeff Denham and Michael Grimm were among the more than 20 lawmakers and staff that jumped into the Sea of Galilee, Politico said.
Senior aides to House Majority Leader Eric Cantor and House Majority Whip Kevin McCarthy also went swimming in the freshwater lake, which is where Christians believe that Jesus walked on water.
Politico quoted sources as saying that neither Cantor nor McCarthy participated in the late-night dip and Cantor later rebuked his Republican colleagues over the incident.
Obama Frijoles Failing
bmz

Since: Mar 08

Singapore

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#39987
Aug 20, 2012
 
hillbillyboy wrote:
<quoted text>
If you deny it is a Messianic Psalm, then what about this part?
"The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together against the LORD and against his Anointed One."...Psalm 2:2
The term "Anointed One" means Messiah. That is what it is about.
Do you deny that the text that mentions the Anointed One, is Messianic?
Yes, I deny that.

I don't see any Messiah in there. Anointed one does not mean only Messiah. Kings of Israel were also anointed. Right?

What about this? 1 Samuel 9:16 Today's New International Version (TNIV)

16 “About this time tomorrow I will send you a man from the land of Benjamin. Anoint him ruler over my people Israel; he will deliver them from the hand of the Philistines. I have looked on my people, for their cry has reached me.”

So, anointed one also means one who was appointed or anointed as a ruler or a king.

And that anointed one was David, who was anointed as a king.
bmz

Since: Mar 08

Singapore

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#39988
Aug 20, 2012
 
Frijoles wrote:
<quoted text>
The evangelicists take great pain to claim they have found the word "son" in the Hebrew, but yet they forget the fact that NOWHERE in any of the Hebrew Scriptures (tanakh) does it define a Jesus figure as God son. That stuff all came later with the NT.
Indeed!

I know the Septuagint was there as a general book for the Greek readers of Ptolemy's library. But it was neither read nor recited as a Scripture by the Jews.

Personally, I believe the Christians' OT, as we see now, was written after the arrival of the NT.

I don't consider Proverbs a Scripture and I do not know why a book of wisdom is taken to show Messiah? Can I have your view on this, please?
bmz

Since: Mar 08

Singapore

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#39989
Aug 20, 2012
 
rabbee yehoshooah adam wrote:
<quoted text>
rabbee: "you shall not prostrate yourself to them nor worship them, for IAM HaShem*, your G-D - a jealous G-D, WHO visits the sins of fathers upon children to the third and fourth generation, for my enemies; but WHO knows kindness for thousands [of generations] to those who love ME and observe MY commandments."
I know that, Rabbee.

I was actually denying incarnation.
Frijoles

Madison, CT

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#39990
Aug 20, 2012
 
bmz wrote:
<quoted text>
Indeed!
I know the Septuagint was there as a general book for the Greek readers of Ptolemy's library. But it was neither read nor recited as a Scripture by the Jews.
Personally, I believe the Christians' OT, as we see now, was written after the arrival of the NT.
I don't consider Proverbs a Scripture and I do not know why a book of wisdom is taken to show Messiah? Can I have your view on this, please?
In the Jewish tradition Proverbs are part of ketuvim (writings) which is the third component of Tanakh. So yes, they would be called scriptures. However, the term scriptures, usually, but not always, is a Christian term. We call it Torah.

The difference is in the intended use. Fundamentalist Christians look to scriptures as a source of authority, while Jews look at PARTS of the Torah as authority and PARTS of the Torah as expressions of praise and allegory.

Serious theology is generally not gleaned from Ketuvim, however, Ketuvim is often quoted to support an idea that is based initially and primarliy in the 5 books section of the Torah*. THats one of the reasons we dont take stake a lot of claim in examing the Psalms or the Proverbs for Jewish Law - we see those sections as praise, as expressive poetry.

*Tanakh means Torah(5 Books of Moses), Neviim(prophets) and ketuvim. But dont be confused because Tanakh as a whole is also called Torah.

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