Indiana right to work state?

Mark Luxford wrote:

<quoted text>
Right Steelie, that's the law I was referring to. You conservatives believe no one should be forced to join a union. We progressives say that the workers who refuse to join the union should not be receiving the benefits of union membership. By repealing that provision and replacing it with one that says workers are free not to join the union, but forfeit union benefits if they choose that option, both concerns would be addressed. You guys would be happy that the whole country was RTW and we'd be happy that those who do not support the union no longer benefit from it. Would you agree to such a proposal?

Good Day,

I would have to think about it a little more...

But let me throw this out there... What is to stop a Union from throwing a fit if enough of the non-union employees begin to make more money than their unionized co-workers and perhaps garner better benefits by the fruits of their labor and recieving such compensation a matter of "merit" if you will. Or maybe they are getting promoted at a higher rate than the unionized employees who might be tied down by seniority? For example... let us say the company hires a new "hot shot" employee who chooses to stay non-union. The employee is so good that in the period of five years he or she recieves 3 promotions. If that same individual had joined the union, what is the likelyhood they would have not only been offered but even allowed to take these promotions due to the rules of seniority? This may not sound "fair" if you will, but would it also not be less of a headache for the company to promote from the non-unionized employee pool as they know they don't have to worry about seniority rules? Just thinking out loud you could say...

Some unionized jobs do pay pretty well, others (SEIU comes to mind) not so much. With that said, some non-union shops have great compensation. I want to say I read an article more than a year ago about a non-union Toyota factory in Kentucky whose workforce had a better overall compensation package than other unionized Toyota plants in other States. Just saying... ;-)

Steelie

Steelie

Good Day,

Oops... double signed off... haha.

And before I forget, not all Unions now deal with seniority. For example, we can look at Michigan's relatively new teacher tenure law. No suprise, I like the idea of teachers being judged by their effectiveness in the classroom.

Steelie

neecer wrote:

<quoted text>
So in other words, I should give up my benefits that I PAY for with my NONUNION job just to make you happy? Are you smoking crack? I worked hard to get this job. I don't make as much as a union worker, but I have a LOT better benefits to go with it.
Quite frankly? I would rather make less money, have better benefits, better chance of raises and bonus' because I am a 'share holder' in the company I work for. I'm not a number, I'm not a warm body, I'm an actual person who goes to work, gives 110% every day and love my job.
I could work for a union doing the same job - but I wouldn't have the bonus, I will pay more for my insurance (with higher deductibles/copays), and I would just be a warm body to do the job and a number. I'll take the lower pay - thanks.

neecer, you forgot the dues...... Monthly.......

As Steelie and Batch have pointed out... I forgot the union dues. Wow, that extra pay has now gone to pay the dues. Bringing me back DOWN to the rate I was at with the nonunion job, but I have crappy benefits, less raises, bonus' and I really doubt I have profit sharing anymore.....

Again, I'll stay nonunion and not have to go through the headache! Why should the union take away what my company offers and what I have worked hard to get just because someone else doesn't like it and think 'it's not fair!'.

A bit of a necessary history lesson: Before labor unions, it was standard practice to work people, literally to death, and never pay them anything more than was absolutely necessary for subsistence. The widows and orphans of those workers would often starve afterwards, unless spoken for by other men.

There was no such thing as a weekend, paid sick time, vacation, or retirement package. There were no safety laws, and if you got hurt on the job, you were simply replaced and forgotten. Also, it was the farthest thing to a meritocracy, because increased productivity was not rewarded with an increase in pay and status, it was met with increased expectations.

The businesses colluded with one another to manipulate and suppress the local labor market, where a person could, on a bad day, lose a job and get blacklisted, perhaps for as little a supervisor's wife having a hangnail.

You little ignofascists do not have a CLUE what you owe Unions, because, unless you were born into money, every cent you earn in this economy was quite literally made possible because of them. Labor unions set the basement price for labor, which led to the rise of the strongest middle class in human history. And all of the little "service industries" that feed on them. The American middle class is very literally the heart, soul and sustenance of this nation, and it simply would not ever have existed without organized Labor.

After a 30 year cultural and political assault on unions, it saddens me to see the corporatists have utterly hoodwinked so many of you into accepting conditions that built and maintained the feudal system in Europe for 1,000 years.

Cyclops Rex wrote:

A bit of a necessary history lesson: Before labor unions, it was standard practice to work people, literally to death, and never pay them anything more than was absolutely necessary for subsistence. The widows and orphans of those workers would often starve afterwards, unless spoken for by other men.
There was no such thing as a weekend, paid sick time, vacation, or retirement package. There were no safety laws, and if you got hurt on the job, you were simply replaced and forgotten. Also, it was the farthest thing to a meritocracy, because increased productivity was not rewarded with an increase in pay and status, it was met with increased expectations.
The businesses colluded with one another to manipulate and suppress the local labor market, where a person could, on a bad day, lose a job and get blacklisted, perhaps for as little a supervisor's wife having a hangnail.
You little ignofascists do not have a CLUE what you owe Unions, because, unless you were born into money, every cent you earn in this economy was quite literally made possible because of them. Labor unions set the basement price for labor, which led to the rise of the strongest middle class in human history. And all of the little "service industries" that feed on them. The American middle class is very literally the heart, soul and sustenance of this nation, and it simply would not ever have existed without organized Labor.
After a 30 year cultural and political assault on unions, it saddens me to see the corporatists have utterly hoodwinked so many of you into accepting conditions that built and maintained the feudal system in Europe for 1,000 years.

Cyco, you are living in the past...... Employers are looking for the best productive employees they can find and are paying well.... Second thing you missed is that there is employment laws that protect employees from abuse such as limiting hours to 40 and other protections...... Get a grip on yourself.......

Cyclops Rex wrote:

A bit of a necessary history lesson: Before labor unions, it was standard practice to work people, literally to death, and never pay them anything more than was absolutely necessary for subsistence. The widows and orphans of those workers would often starve afterwards, unless spoken for by other men.
There was no such thing as a weekend, paid sick time, vacation, or retirement package. There were no safety laws, and if you got hurt on the job, you were simply replaced and forgotten. Also, it was the farthest thing to a meritocracy, because increased productivity was not rewarded with an increase in pay and status, it was met with increased expectations.
The businesses colluded with one another to manipulate and suppress the local labor market, where a person could, on a bad day, lose a job and get blacklisted, perhaps for as little a supervisor's wife having a hangnail.
You little ignofascists do not have a CLUE what you owe Unions, because, unless you were born into money, every cent you earn in this economy was quite literally made possible because of them. Labor unions set the basement price for labor, which led to the rise of the strongest middle class in human history. And all of the little "service industries" that feed on them. The American middle class is very literally the heart, soul and sustenance of this nation, and it simply would not ever have existed without organized Labor.
After a 30 year cultural and political assault on unions, it saddens me to see the corporatists have utterly hoodwinked so many of you into accepting conditions that built and maintained the feudal system in Europe for 1,000 years.

So in other words.. us plebs that choose to have jobs that aren't union - or make the conscious decision to NOT let the union raid our paychecks should go back to times before the union just to pacify your hurt widdle feewings?

Having been on both sides of the union isle (family owned business having to deal with Teamsters and my father belonging to a union), I will happily stay out of one. Yes, I know exactly what unions have done in the PAST. They changed how companies work today, giving us sick time, vacation time, benefits, and even Clinton's FLMA. BUT, what the union today has practically become what they fought against originally.

neecer wrote:

<quoted text>
So in other words.. us plebs that choose to have jobs that aren't union - or make the conscious decision to NOT let the union raid our paychecks should go back to times before the union just to pacify your hurt widdle feewings?
Having been on both sides of the union isle (family owned business having to deal with Teamsters and my father belonging to a union), I will happily stay out of one. Yes, I know exactly what unions have done in the PAST. They changed how companies work today, giving us sick time, vacation time, benefits, and even Clinton's FLMA. BUT, what the union today has practically become what they fought against originally.

Yeah, the left always want to send the Union Bosses to exotic locations at luxury resorts at the expense of the working man.......

Mark Luxford wrote:

<quoted text>
Hey SIB, thanks for having my back. I guess the poor soul is just too obtuse to recognize that I was talking about us being used by God to bring His goodness into the world. I was in no way, shape or form equating myself with God. I am no way equal with God just as a hammer or screwdriver is in no way equal to the person using it.

Shame on you for supporting abortion

Batch 37 Pain Is Good wrote:

<quoted text>neecer, you forgot the dues...... Monthly.......

Call them what they are - protection money.

Only liberals think that paying someone else for the "privilege" of having a job makes sense.

neecer wrote:

<quoted text>
So in other words.. us plebs that choose to have jobs that aren't union - or make the conscious decision to NOT let the union raid our paychecks should go back to times before the union just to pacify your hurt widdle feewings?
Having been on both sides of the union isle (family owned business having to deal with Teamsters and my father belonging to a union), I will happily stay out of one. Yes, I know exactly what unions have done in the PAST. They changed how companies work today, giving us sick time, vacation time, benefits, and even Clinton's FLMA. BUT, what the union today has practically become what they fought against originally.

I am pretty sure the corruption of modern labor unions was not only condoned, but encouraged by the corporatists (think: J Edgar and his deals with Mob bosses in the middle part of the 20th Century). It is much like the way they have corrupted government, itself. Whenever an idea or entity comes into being, that tries to promote ideas that benefit the common good of humanity, there is ALWAYS stiff resistance from those who profit hugely from the inequality and injustice of the status quo. Steps are immediately taken to preserve it. Some of those steps are felt instantly and some may take generations to manifest.

However, in neither case is it wise to throw the baby out with the bathwater. We NEED government to keep the mammoth commercial forces we have called into being in check, and anyone with functional frontal lobes can see the degradation of the American worker, after the 3 decade long attack (from both within and without) on organized labor.

Being on the wrong side of an issue can be forgiven if one does not have all the relevant facts, as ignorance is not a sin. However, when one insists on being wrong after all the facts are presented, they move from ignorance to outright stupidity or malice.

Cyclops Rex wrote:

<quoted text>
I am pretty sure the corruption of modern labor unions was not only condoned, but encouraged by the corporatists (think: J Edgar and his deals with Mob bosses in the middle part of the 20th Century). It is much like the way they have corrupted government, itself. Whenever an idea or entity comes into being, that tries to promote ideas that benefit the common good of humanity, there is ALWAYS stiff resistance from those who profit hugely from the inequality and injustice of the status quo. Steps are immediately taken to preserve it. Some of those steps are felt instantly and some may take generations to manifest.
However, in neither case is it wise to throw the baby out with the bathwater. We NEED government to keep the mammoth commercial forces we have called into being in check, and anyone with functional frontal lobes can see the degradation of the American worker, after the 3 decade long attack (from both within and without) on organized labor.
Being on the wrong side of an issue can be forgiven if one does not have all the relevant facts, as ignorance is not a sin. However, when one insists on being wrong after all the facts are presented, they move from ignorance to outright stupidity or malice.

Do you believe J. Edgar was a cross dresser?????

Cyclops Rex wrote:

<quoted text>
I am pretty sure the corruption of modern labor unions was not only condoned, but encouraged by the corporatists (think: J Edgar and his deals with Mob bosses in the middle part of the 20th Century). It is much like the way they have corrupted government, itself. Whenever an idea or entity comes into being, that tries to promote ideas that benefit the common good of humanity, there is ALWAYS stiff resistance from those who profit hugely from the inequality and injustice of the status quo. Steps are immediately taken to preserve it. Some of those steps are felt instantly and some may take generations to manifest.
However, in neither case is it wise to throw the baby out with the bathwater. We NEED government to keep the mammoth commercial forces we have called into being in check, and anyone with functional frontal lobes can see the degradation of the American worker, after the 3 decade long attack (from both within and without) on organized labor.
Being on the wrong side of an issue can be forgiven if one does not have all the relevant facts, as ignorance is not a sin. However, when one insists on being wrong after all the facts are presented, they move from ignorance to outright stupidity or malice.

And I choose to stay OUT of a union as I have seen first hand that they have caused more harm than good. Unions DID serve a purpose, but no one has been able to prove to me now that they are worth it anymore. It's more like they hold the workers in check and hold them back from their real potential.

If you work for a union, they get to decide via contract your rate of pay, raises, etc. Please explain to me how a raise of 50 cents over 3 years is a good thing. really? With a union, where is the incentive to do your best 110% of the time while you are working? Where is the incentive to actually do your job? There isn't. You know you are guaranteed to have a pay raise, every year for the length of the contract. It doesn't matter how well you do your job or even if you do you job. You still get paid and you still get a raise. As long as you don't do something totally stupid and get yourself fired - and with a union, that's actually a very difficult thing to do.

And whether or not the Unions had help with their corruption, the main thing remains is they ARE corrupted. They have been corrupted for a very long time. They have done nothing to stop this or clean it up themselves, and still expect the 'plebs' to accept it as the norm and keep supporting them and giving them money. I choose no to. Call me names, really don't care. It's called CHOICE. And the only one that gets to make this choice is ME.

Who wrote:

<quoted text>
Call them what they are - protection money.
Only liberals think that paying someone else for the "privilege" of having a job makes sense.

The problem is? It's not really protection money. How many workers have been put out of a job because the companies wouldn't bend to the union thugs and closed the doors? Or the companies hired workers to take the place of union workers on strike?

neecer wrote:

<quoted text>
And I choose to stay OUT of a union as I have seen first hand that they have caused more harm than good. Unions DID serve a purpose, but no one has been able to prove to me now that they are worth it anymore. It's more like they hold the workers in check and hold them back from their real potential.
If you work for a union, they get to decide via contract your rate of pay, raises, etc. Please explain to me how a raise of 50 cents over 3 years is a good thing. really? With a union, where is the incentive to do your best 110% of the time while you are working? Where is the incentive to actually do your job? There isn't. You know you are guaranteed to have a pay raise, every year for the length of the contract. It doesn't matter how well you do your job or even if you do you job. You still get paid and you still get a raise. As long as you don't do something totally stupid and get yourself fired - and with a union, that's actually a very difficult thing to do.
And whether or not the Unions had help with their corruption, the main thing remains is they ARE corrupted. They have been corrupted for a very long time. They have done nothing to stop this or clean it up themselves, and still expect the 'plebs' to accept it as the norm and keep supporting them and giving them money. I choose no to. Call me names, really don't care. It's called CHOICE. And the only one that gets to make this choice is ME.

Good Day,

Union bosses = modern day plantation owners...

Steelie

Don't ya love the protesters out in front of AQUINAS college and st Mary's holding the union signs...

Stop and ask them what it's all about, they have no idea, they are not part of the union...
The union pays them so members don't have to actually picket themselves.

Is that unions way of saying... they care, but not that much...

neecer wrote:

<quoted text>
The problem is? It's not really protection money. How many workers have been put out of a job because the companies wouldn't bend to the union thugs and closed the doors? Or the companies hired workers to take the place of union workers on strike?

It's legalized extortion, pure and simple.