Hickory Chase project in foreclosure

Point Lookout In Maine is still operating? This place is lavish. All interested parties, are urged to examine the website for an Erickson owned retreat called Point Lookout. It is private & not part of the Erickson rental communities. I don't know the purpose for this place. The Erickson website has a link for Point Lookout Maine, which is a subsidiary of The Erickson Group LLP.....This place is confusing in that it is still operational.

This comment is intended to be constructive 'criticism'. I am critical by nature but want to be trusting of human nature, which is basically good. People are basically good....I visited an Erickson Community, not in OH but in PA. I loved the apartments. I was ready to move into one....I wanted to sell my house to move there....I waited. The buildings are lovely,neat,clean,well lit and very fall-proof. I loved the washers & dryers in each unit. I knew they are apartments, but they are 'erronously' called Apartment-Homes. This was a red flag for me....The putting green in PA had 8 holes, not the usual 9 holes. The flags on the putting green were not numbered. The wood-shop (for seniors?) was a 'stock it yourself'...(Might be wrong about that.) The so-called 'library' was also stocked by the residents...My child's pre-school had more books than these 2 slim book-shelves.....The swimming pool is lovely. It was unoccupied when I visited...I still think Erickson Communities are a great idea for seniors as long as they understand they are renters....The lease contract stated that the tenants may be asked to leave at any time which was a red flag also, but I could see why this could be necessary....A CCRC offers hospital care but this is not part of the monthly rent...Hospital care at a "Renaissance" type center can easily run an additional $9,500 per month per spouse...This isn't part of the monthly Erickson rent as far as I know.....Still, despite all of this, believe it or not I do like the Erickson Concept but it seems too expensive and a completely healthy senior could get discouraged living around some very sickly seniors who use portable oxygen containers on wheelchairs or jazzy chairs....I wish I had a solution....

One more thing (red flag)

The lease-contract states that the tenant-resident, I think they use the word occupant/occupants receive their entrance fee back to themselves or their estate after the unit of the occupant/occupants is re-rented or re-occupied, so there could be a delay if the unit is not re-occupied....This is very serious becuase the entrance fee is usually anywhere from 100K-485K in some areas....Henry Ford Village in MI has lower entrance fees. I guess entrance fees are based mainly on the local real estate market since occupants are selling their houses for the most part. I do not know why the entrance fee wouldn't automatically be refunded to the occupant or their estate since it is in escrow anyhow and not earning the occupant any interest. Even if it is a timed deposit the occupant/s should not have to wait until 'their' unit is re-rented.....An estate, I could see could take longer to settle but an occupant who chooses to move elsewhere needs their entrance fee in order to move elsewhere.

Who appointed Donna as comment maker for Erickson Communities?
I have been to one of their lovely facilities and it was outstanding. Food
delicious, residents friendly and active. I tried to find one resident who
was unhappy and all they did was tell me how happy they were.
The prices are set by location. Those on the East and in Texas are more
expensive than others. That is true of every retirement facility. I also
want to compliment the company on hiring really outstanding, kind and
sincere individuals. Several friends have noticed this in their other
communities.
If you have all those questions, Donna, just don't move in. They don't
lasso you or put any pressure on you at all.
I am not, in any way, connected with this company, but feel there are always two sides to each story and people need to make up their own
minds without spewing their insecurity to others.

You made some excellent points....Here's my reply: Baby Boomers who are starting to down-size and who are in good or great health can easily prepare their own meals...Meal preparation in a group setting is mainly for Forum Group type assisted living situations, so personally I don't think Erickson Group needs to offer one meal a day to their renters....Another concern of mine is this: Why does a resident have to wait until their unit-apt. is re-rented out to the next tenant in order to receive their entrance fee? If you decided to move someday to re-locate to be closer to an adult offspring who moved to another part of the country you would have to wait until your apartment-home (apartment in reality) is re-rented to another senior...And what if that took longer than you liked? Then you'd be in a jam....An 'investor' in a retirement community should not have to wait until someone else is occupying an apt. they have vacated in order to receive their entrance fee, otherwise this appears to be something akin to a type of 'ponzi', not a real ponzi but resembling one, not in an illegal sense but in a sense of you do not get your entrance fee refunded until another person occupies your unit, so you must wait for the next 'investor'-occupant....Do you think this is fair to the occupant who is vacating?

I totally agree that there are two sides to every story and it would be much to the benefit of those considering moving to facilities such as Hickory Chase to not only attend one of their free lunch presentations but to also talk with others who live is like facilities. As I read Donna's review of her experience at the PA community I was reminded of the number of people attending the Hilliard presentation who appeared to be afraid to ask questions or were far too willing to accept the answers they were given even if those answers were sometimes vague or incomplete. Be prepared with questions and have some feeling for not simply what you want to hear but what you need to hear in order for campus like facilites such as Erikson's to make living in this environment comfortable for you. If they fail to respond to your questions or if the answers don't suit or fit your needs do not for one minute believe that things will work out somewhere down the road because they most likely will not. Moving to a senior community is a HUGE decision and should most likely be given more attention than any previous move you might have made. I think it is unfair to imply that Donna is speaking for anyone but Donna - she pointed out issues and circumstances that she found uncomfortable or not represented as she personally felt they should have been. I experienced much them same during my visit and my review of the materials provided - that does not mean, nor should it, that Hickory Chase, Erikson communities or any other senior designated community or facility is not the perfect decision for some people. However there is certainly nothing wrong with looking at such a decision with a critical eye.

I would like to know what led to Key's forclosure?
Key says they can not discuss the situation because of privacy policy. Erickson gives only vague references to financing problems.

I felt it may have been that people could not sell their homes in todays market. But, Hickory Chase personnel insist that the applicants were ready to move in as soon as the project was ready.

So I have to assume that Key felt that, for some reason, Hickory Chase would not be able to pay back the loan. If this is the case what was the problem and why was it not discovered until the final month of construction? Is Erickson in financial trouble or is the problem unique to Hickory Chace?

Does any one have any factual information regarding the siuation?

Pat wrote:

Who appointed Donna as comment maker for Erickson Communities?

The prices are set by location.

This is an open forum for discussion of the topic "Hickory Chase in Foreclosure"...Anyone can comment ....Now you say, "The prices are set by location." Open pricing though a free market might be an option to rent more apartments to seniors. If home sales are negotiable then why are apt. rents not also negotiable. Some restaurants around the country are starting negotiable meal prices. In a free market all sales should be negotiable. This could include entrance "fees" and annual rents. For big business, interest rates are negotiatable and also re-negotiable.(Erickson tried unsucessfully to re-negotiate their loans w/Key Bank.) If big business can negotiate rates then why not tenants and tenants to be? "Not having to write more than one check a month" for convenience is not enough to encourage seniors to change thier entire lives for that convenience. Most monthly bills are automatically deducted from checking accounts anyhow. Some very elder seniors need adult chilren's mental input and all real estate negotiations and especially contracts for any independent or assistant living situation really need superb legal advice from the family lawyer. All seniors of any means, especially middle class seniors need a personal lawyer.

The biggest problem with senior communities such as Hickory Chase is the confusion between buy, rent & lease. Most advertising leads one to believe that you are purchasing a unit (such as a condo) which would mean that you couldn't be displaced on a whim. However, after reviewing the material the implication is that you are leasing a unit and prices and fees will not be standard through the duration of your stay (from lease to lease) nor from unit to unit. If you are renting or leasing then your entry fee "might" be considered a deposit and subject to all of the legal rights, regulations and conditions of a standard lease agreement. Terms of a lease for the purpose of living accomidations in Ohio cannot exceed a specified length of time and deposits for vacating must be returned within 30 days unless the leasing facility can show cause for witholding such deposit (such as damage to the property - not simply that they haven't found a new tenant). Anyone considering any move to a senior facility should treat it the same as they would an move - read the terms and conditions and if necessary get others (family members, a lawyer, trusted and knowledgable friend) to review anything that you are asked to sign. This is not intended to be a condemnation of any such facility simply a common sense approach to what could become a very expensive proposition.

Erickson has been looking like they were in trouble since the housing market began to crash. One of the first public signs was when John Erickson suddenly retired without a transition period last winter. Their business model depended on the real estate "bubble" that gave home owners huge unearned profits to invest in an Erickson home. When the housing market crashed, so did Erickson's revenue stream. They have indefinitely closed down all of their planned campuses and their construction division employees were laid off last spring. I think the term is "over leveraged." There are probably other companies with similar problems, but it looks like Erickson may have a very rough time ahead.

I must admit that about one year ago, after I joined the Priority List, my lawyer looked at the contract and said get your $1000 back, the deal is full of problems. The biggest one is: You give them big money and you own NOTHING. If they go through bankrupcy you would probably be out of a home AND your money.

After that I learned that the facilities are seperate companies. I pointed out to a local HC person that that was to protect the rest of the company should one of the facilites go broke. I was laughed at.

Also, during the presentations many guests would use the term condo. The HC people never used that term, only the term "your unit".

Finally, my neighbor is an earth moving contractor and he said some one else in that business says HC owes them $300,000 for work at HC. He may have to go to court to get what he can from them.

So, lets all of us chaulk this up to a learning experience. At 71 I still experience those.

If I ever consider such a facility again, I will only look at one that is built and operating and then talk to the occupants.

Finally if any of us on the Priority List get our money back, post that fact here.

Has anyone every heard of National Senior Campus. Inc.? I googled Erickson Retirement once & got this group. It has a PU Box in Baltimore,MD. It implies it is 'supervizing & regulating' Erickson's Communities. I don't koow it it is disbanded or not or if this was a hostile takeover attempt. It listed all Erickson Communities with the exception of Henry Ford Village. Maybe National Senior Campus is gone already..Also beware the asterisk on Erickson Contracts. The asterisk states the occupant(s) receives their entrance deposit after vacating or estate-vacating * as per residance contract agreement....The * contract agreement states the entrance deposit is refunded when Erickson gets someone to sign their *contact on the unit you are occupying and leaving, so it is self-perpetuating.....(This protects Erickson more than it protects the occupant of the unit.) Also the contractural agreement states the residents pay a quota share rent for the Cardinal Clubhouse,etc. but that's ok really. That is very normal since the residents are using it regularly & giving it wear & tear,etc.

Correction:

re-checked the name: It's "National Senior Canpuses, Inc." P.O.Box 21172 Baltimore,Maryland 21228 website is nationalseniorcampuses.org

This website lists all Erickson Developed Communities except Henry Ford Village ( & possibly 1st one in Catonsville.) I don't know if a wesbite that ends in org is a governmental website. I've 'heard'.com is a website that is for profit?

Being a senior,it's hard to vision the plural of campus as campuses, rather than the old-fashioned Latin-based campi or just campus.

Worthless. It still encourages people to consider Hickory Chase. Makes it sound wonderful.
Fred

Makes it sound wonderful.

I used to daydream about moving to Maris Grove (Erickson). We visited it several times. It is beautiful with a nice shopping center (new) nearby..The 'facilities' are lovely & well landscaped. Buildings well situated. Does not look at all institutional with good architecture. But we decided we're far too young right now. We did get our priority deposit back after we requested it in writing but it took at least 2 or 3 weeks. I phoned them & they said they mailed it to N.J. by mistake & it was returned to them. We did finally get it but I had to call twice. We did not expect the two procesing fees of over $100 ea. I think the processing fees were $135 for each of us but as least we got our $1,000 priority list fee back, so good luck to you.

Trying to post a link to the Erickson Foundation Resort at Point Lookout Maine. This resort is fantastic, like something out of a James Bond movie from the 1960's...It lists menus for catering,etc. Something like 110 log cabins. Huge conference center with huge conference table. Largest conference table I've ever seen. Personal bowling alleys. All the amenities. It is owned by the Erickson Foundation...Look at this & wonder why Hickory Chase went into foreclosure?

www.visitpointlookout.com/about/foundation.as...

Molly wrote:

Erickson has been looking like they were in trouble since the housing market began to crash. One of the first public signs was when John Erickson suddenly retired without a transition period last winter. Their business model depended on the real estate "bubble" that gave home owners huge unearned profits to invest in an Erickson home. When the housing market crashed, so did Erickson's revenue stream. They have indefinitely closed down all of their planned campuses and their construction division employees were laid off last spring. I think the term is "over leveraged." There are probably other companies with similar problems, but it looks like Erickson may have a very rough time ahead.

I checked a book out of our library about Retirement Communities and accredited CCRC's. I can't remember if a CCRC (Continuing Care Retirement Community) is Federal or State accredited, but accreditation is recommended by the author of the book....I posted a link for Erickson Foundation retreat called visitpointlookout.com (This is the Erickson Foundation in Maine.) But the book I read on retirement communities said if the retirement place ends in .com it is for profit and it if ends in .org then it is a non-profit....Legally a non-profit is not the same as a not for profit. I'm not a lawyer but after looking at (ha) Point Lookout Erickson Foundation it looked to me like some bureaucrats in DC and some corporate leaders would envision 'middle incomeretirees ' as (to them)'low income'....There is an astronomical disparity between Point Lookout Maine and their retirement communities. The only similarity I could see was the chefs serving their clients while wearing those old fashioned "White House" style chef hats...

Today, July 14, I received a check from Hickory Chase for a ful refund of my Priority list application fee.

It was a pleasant end to a very frustrating experience. In summary, it looks like Erickson was over come by the results of the dive in the economy. They, like most of us, just did not see it coming until they were in too deep.

I am sure the Hickory Chase facility will be completed, at least the portion under construction and operated in some fashion. The economy will eventually recover. But that property, like the economy, will never return to what had been or had been planned.

Fred Rea

These places prey on the elderly.

Just so you all know Braun Construction Group the General Contractor on this project had no performace bond. So the subcontractors are all owed a lot of money with no real legal recourse to get it back. I'm a supplier for one of those contractors I'm being told not to hold my breath while waiting to get our money.

Erikson seems like a very dishonest company from my point of view the way all of this went down. I would encourage seniors to consider that before renting from them.