United Nations peacekeepers sought for Juarez: 2 groups say aid...

PinkyandNoBrain wrote:

You are getting no arguement here. We've allowed these guys to allow a mess to come into another mess.
We do however have to take responsibility for where we are and stop blaming the illegals, the afghanistan people, the chickens, the frogs, the rocks, the earth.

Good we agree on accountability of one's people.

Alright Pancho,

I think we are starting to talk productively here.

So, when do we start working on that unquenchable thirst for drugs and how do you propose this is addressed?

PinkyandNoBrain wrote:

Alright Pancho,
I think we are starting to talk productively here.
So, when do we start working on that unquenchable thirst for drugs and how do you propose this is addressed?

Yes we are talking productively. I just think people are misinformed on what appetite for illegal substances has done to many of the nations south of our border. One thing I like is the border fence and want more layers of fencing and tighter enforcement of cross border trade and immigration. The fence should be on our Northern border also. The ports need more monitoring and inspections with only a small percentage of trade being inspected. Funding needs to be increased to support our border personnel. Training, personnel, technology, equipment and many other things have to be funded and increased spending.

As you can not see, Juan, not many agree with you.

The Sister city program was corrupted by political opportunist in EP and Juarez. Many politicians,in an effort to get elected, conducted a love fest via the news media. Each professing to love one city or the other more than their opponent. Perhaps if each mayor tended to the city they were elected by, there wouldnt be so many problems in either city The Sister city program was designed for commercial and cultural exchanges, thats all.

Afghanistan and Juarez are two very differnce issues, so to compare is insane. By the way, UN Peacekeepers are also very different from NATO combat forces. One monitors peace agreements and the other engages in combat to protect the organization's interest.

I empathize with the people of Juarez, but it is THEIR country and THEY must solve the problem of having an indifferent and corrupt government. Take a good look at what other people in oppressed countries do, they die if necessary to effect change.

JuanPabloMagno1 wrote:

This is interesting. I knew there were biases against Mexico, but this display of it is overwhelming. I suppose the intensity is increased by the currently floundering economy of the US. I realize that CNN boldly announces that "the recession is over," but people who continue to lose their jobs and homes may not be convinced.
It is clear that my present company on this forum is unwilling to accept any responsibility for the US being the world's chief consumer of drugs and supplier of arms. That's interesting.
I was blithely instructed to admit my failures and block the passage of the Juarez mayor to El Paso, but when I suggest US responsibility for demanding drugs and supplying arms, my suggestion falls on deaf ears.
I get it: In some peculiar way, I have the power to tell the mayor of Juarez what to do and I have the power to jail cartel bosses, but nobody in the US has the power to quit consuming drugs or cease the selling of arms. The rush of power I feel from these peculiar expressions of bias is sensational. I, alone, on this forum have been told that the responsibility for the problems and solutions rests solely on my shoulders. Caray.
OK, folks. I'll get right on that task of solving Mexico's problems and I will undo any effect those problems have had on the US. All of you can just sit back and relax while I assume governmental and moral authority over a nation of millions.
Hey, would one of you loan me a cell phone so I can call the mayor and tell him go get back to Juarez.
What a fascinating bunch of people.
Thanks, PinkyandNoBrain, for the compliment. I need all the moral support I can get on this forum.

Who started this war against the cartels Wazoo?
Your boy Calderon in 2006.
How many lives have been lost in Mexico since the beginning?

Now they make it legal for people IN MEXICO to carry small amounts of drugs? Hmmmmm.
Yup, makes sense to me.

And you want to blame the demand?
Why don't you stop complaining......it's your own people killing your own people because of your own government that does not promote freedom. You have 95% poor (I wonder why) and 5% wealthy connected to the Government with payoffs. Hmmmmmm.

Your own government is the problem and you fail to see it.
You should become an undocumented Democrat and come over here to the U.S. and run for office......like all the other clueless liberals.

SPEARCHUCKER EL MAYATE wrote:

<quoted text> ARE YOU TRIPPING? YOU LOVE MEXICO!

I have nothing against no people from any other country.

I guess this is tripping then.

SPEARCHUCKER EL MAYATE wrote:

HOW DARE MEXICO ASK THE UN FOR ANYTHING ,MEXICO A COUNTRY WHO HAS NEVER SENT PEACE KEEPERS(THE MEXICAN ARMY ANYWHERE)NO COUNTRY SHOULD HELP MEXICO ,MEXICO HAS NEVER DONE CRAP FOR THE UN FOR THE WORLD.LOOK WHAT MEXICO HAS DONE TO MY COUNTRY AMERICA.

Still agree with you except for last sentence. What they have done to themselves is their problem. Same goes for the United States.

Don't get big headed because I agree with you here on this post. The hatred of other races which you post is Not ethical to me. Looking down on a people because of where you came from is wrong to me. Pride of your own is one thing but hatred is hatred.

Since I'm writing from the wrong side of the river, I expected a few hard knocks, but the sociopathic denial of our common humanity expressed on this forum is somewhat chilling.
In the local case of the El Paso-Juarez sister cities, it makes no sense to speak of the situation in Juarez as remote and unrelated to the affairs of El Paso.
El Paso's customers from Juarez are blocked at the bridges and scrutinized as terrorists while Oklahoma City and Fort Hood are attacked by US home-grown talent. There was no Mexican involvement in the 9-11 atrocities, but I have to wait for hours to cross into El Paso. While I wait, drugs are sailing overhead in aircraft and floating north by sea, passing the arms dealers headed south. Home grown terrorists roam freely on your military bases.
Whether or not it is desirable, it is no longer possible for any nation to just mind its own business and solve its own problems. Whether or not you folks of superior breeding and enriched DNA to the north like it, your local economy depends to some degree on Juarez while your national economy is being propped up by Communist China. Business is no longer limited to the distance between your living room and the corner store. Whether or not El Paso likes its proximity to Juarez, neither municipality can be easily moved to suit the desires of the northern master race.

I believe that the general topic of this discussion was to be centered on the consideration of outside intervention in Mexican (North American) problems. Having pretty well eliminated the likelihood or appropriateness of sending UN Peacekeepers, I'm wondering if anybody has any other good ideas.
I suspect that any direct intervention by the US would be out of the question, but I never say never. Hypothetically, we might all want to consider the question: What would American troops do to correct the problem?
Just as there is no contract for the UN Peacekeepers to monitor, there is no clear enemy target for the focus of troops from any nation. There is no recognized or clearly identified group to be subdued or controlled.
If the only objective were to subdue or eliminate a major player, Forbes magazine can help all concerned in finding a suspect. Of course, back in the day, there was nobody in Chicago who didn't know about Al Capone, but nobody could do anything about him until the IRS nailed him for tax evasion. I don't believe the US asked Canada to send troops into Chicago. As Nacho suggested be done in the current situation, the US found some peculiar way to solve the "Capone problem."
But those were simpler times.
What I'm digging for is the possibility that somebody on this forum make constructive suggestions toward solving problems affecting both nations - no matter which nation is of better breeding.
These bizarre assertions that people north of the river are genetically superior to people south of the river are not really helpful.(Nor are they quite sane.)
Even though some of you - maybe most of you - feel that you are dealing with an inferior species, our numbers south of the river exceed six million, so trying a final solution that entails our total elimination might be an impractical challenge, even for the greatest power in the Western World.
If somebody could concede, just for the sake of conversation, that I and my neighbors are human, could we explore some possibilities of solving the problems affecting Juarez and El Paso / Mexico and the US?
I hope that conceding I am human imposes no unbearable strain on your imagination - or on your collective imaginations. If required, I could send a blood sample to the El Paso Times. I would appear in person if it weren't so difficult and time-consuming to cross the bridges.

Juan, get the chip off your shoulder. Many of the El Pasoans are of Mexican descent, therefore how can we feel superior to people of our heritage. The issue that irks you is that we are Americans first.

If this side of the river is filled with sociopaths, why would you want assistance or association. Cant have it both ways.

I will keep it short and not drag it out.

Do something constructive and meaningful for yourself and the people of Mexico. Try holding your government accountable for your problems.

JuanPabloMagno1 wrote:

Since I'm writing from the wrong side of the river, I of better breeding.

I hope that conceding I am human imposes no unbearable strain on your imagination - or on your collective imaginations. If required, I could send a blood sample to the El Paso Times. I would appear in person if it weren't so difficult and time-consuming to cross the bridges.

Is this Chapter 1. Kidding aside JuanPabloMagnol you have valid points but people in the United States don't view as bad as you think. This is where many Mexicans see us thinking this way. We citizens of the United States have our own problems and need to solve them ourselves. People here blame the problem of illegal substances with the suppliers down south and people south of the border blame us for the demand. No matter it is the fault of our own in each country.

I will read this more in depth later.

Peace...

JuanPabloMagno1 wrote:

I returned to the "sister cities" area in 2007 after a thirty-year absence. I expected change, but the deterioration of Juarez still strikes me with the horror of a surrealistic nightmare. I keep hoping I'll awaken and be able to stroll down Avenida Juarez to visit one of my old favorite cafes of the seventies. A double-shot espresso would be required to clear my mind of the grim images of such a bad dream. Unfortunately, I've now been drinking espresso for about three years, and Avenida Juarez gets more nightmarish by the cup.
The UN Peacekeepers would be way ahead of me if they could now clearly distinguish between the remaining legitimate businesses and the cartel(s).
As previously mentioned, there is no agreement between any two clearly defined parties for the UN to monitor.
However, the sister who hangs out on the north side of the Rio Bravo is taking an unwarranted attitude of self-righteousness toward the situation. And that pretense of El Pasoans appearing to take the high moral ground is something that has NOT changed since my early days in the area.
El Paso continues to whine that its only problem is that nasty old girl on the south side of the river.
Let's do a reality check. The chaos in Juarez is financed by the world's leading consumer of drugs - those angels to the north. And how long does anybody need to figure out where all the arms and ammunition come from that have caused the streets of the old city I loved to become littered with thousands of corpses?
But, if it makes all you saints on the guarded side of the bridges feel better, let's all pretend that Juarez, just out of the blue, took a great notion to commit suicide.
And God forbid that any trace of crime or violence "spill over" into the country where well-fed, middle-class children blow each other away in classrooms.
Sorry folks, but I'm not convinced that the squeaky clean image that El Paso would like to maintain is due to the tougher moral fiber of people on the north side of an indifferent river.
As unemployment and other shaky economic factors pound away at the US, the violence that "spills over" into El Paso may be roving bands of unemployed people from Las Cruces.
El Paso should remove its synthetic halo and see that Juarez is indeed a sister city, and, due to difficult living conditions here on earth, all the saints have moved to heaven.

Wow, just read the preface to the book. You have a lot to say here. Sister cities yes but different countries. We each have our own loyalties and should be proud. Don't condemn the United States for certain actions that are part of life. It happens in all countries. This reminds me of the papers in Mexico that only have negative things to report on the United States. Peace...

The common points between Mexico and Afghanistan are not my fantasy. Afganistan's people, having no way to make decent livings selling rugs, have turned to the more lucrative drug trade. Again, America's status as the chief consumer is not a figment of my imagination; it is a matter of fact.
I assumed that many participants on this forum would be El Pasoans with roots or families in Mexico, making their insults and unrealistic suggestions to Mexicans who stayed home all the more puzzling.
Undoubtedly, some of the people in El Paso who are upset by the Juarez mayor's leaving Mexico have themselves taken the option of leaving Mexico rather than staying to do their part in making Mexico a more livable country. But you get no argument from me in seeing the mayor's move as unacceptable. I just wanted to make it clear that I have no hot-line to the mayor, nor do I go out dining and drinking with Felipe Calderon.
I found no need to concede Mexico's flaws and shortcomings to a group already convinced that the only way to solve Mexican problems was to leave the country. In view of the the popular acceptance of that solution, maybe it is entirely appropriate that the mayor of Juarez reside in El Paso.
So, from vantage point of those of you living on the good side of the river, I thought there might come some good suggestions on how those who stay in Mexico could affect positive change.
With maybe a few exceptions, revolutions have a nasty way of replacing one group of tyrants with another. There were some very bright and idealistic people to build a nation after the American Revolution, and people of the same intelligence and idealism, after a bloody and chaotic revolution, tried to do the same in Mexico. Although there has been - probably still is - much debate over the success of the Mexican Revolution, the country's current condition is clearly not meeting the ideals of any sane person.
Sorry about the excessive length of my posts, but I'm trying to see where all participants are "coming from," and the suggestion of outside intervention in Mexico may have to be dealt with in some realistic way.
Everybody should bear in mind that, like most of you, Mexican citizens are just trying to make it through the day, and they cannot dictate the behavior of either the mayor of Juarez or the president of the country.
Just as there was question about the validity of George W's election for a second term, there is question about the validity of Calderon's election. So suggesting that Mexican citizens take appropriate corrective actions through political process becomes questionable. Maybe they DID take appropriate action, but were overwhelmed by the tricks of political process.
But, just to explore the issue, some of you could pretend that you are back in Mexico. How would you correct the situation? What would you suggest? Some of the participants here have been quite bold about telling me how to fix things up. I was ordered to admit my failures. I've done that. Now, what would you do?
Is outside intervention desirable or possible? What steps would outsiders take? What would be the goals and objectives? How would they be implemented and realized?
So far, it seems the forum's consensus is that everybody should leave Mexico, but do it in some way that they not trouble other expatriates and not bother the citizens of better countries - except for the mayor of Juarez who should remain in town to govern those who can't afford to leave.
I'm still waiting for good suggestions.

Juan, I do believe that you are sincere and a decent person. I feel for you, Mexico and the many other places in this world with problems similar to yours.

We have many problems here and are stretched to a point that it is very difficult to help others. We have China as the main banker and they are now lecturing the US about economic policies and are worried about default on the loans.

The people of Mexico will have to start demanding change thru legal and informed voting. Protest in the streets. Take the example set by the people in Iran. I cant offer too many things because of laws that prohibit certain things by US citizens.

Your government has done nothing to create jobs,education and stability. They want to keep you uneducated, uninformed and poor as a means to control the status quo. Afghanistan has the same problem. But that is another discussion of geopolitics.

What else can you do, you already have by discussing here what needs to be discussed in Mexico. Some risks, but then how bad do you want change ?

Juan, one more longwinded statement. Remember you are fighting NACROTERRORIST. Terrorist can only function if the people support them, whether it is willingly or forced. The more havoc they can create, the more the government stiffens and oppresses the people in order to maintain control and stability. Of course the people then turn against the government and support the terrorist which promises good pay. The endless circle.

However here, the military takes money as fast as the police. Find the good ones and give them maximum support.

Thanks for the good wishes, but my digging for discussion about solutions was not a plea for help, other than in the sense of hoping for good ideas. I don't think progress in anything can be achieved if it can't be first imagined, then thought out, then expressed in words, and - finally - applied to reality.

Narco-terrorists can only function in a world that demands their products. Either legalizing or boycotting their products would put them out of business. They are only selling what is available and profitable. The "value" of drugs is artificially inflated by the laws against them. Nobody more strongly opposes the legalization of drugs that the drug dealers. But maybe we should hesitate to put too much stock in the term Narco-terrorist. The US Mafia of yesteryear could have been called Alcohol-terrorists, but their chief skill was in finding an available source of a demanded but prohibited product. Anything that is criminalized draws criminals - sometimes creates criminals.
At this late stage of the drug business, its cessation would cause further economic problems for the areas that have come to depend on the trade. Yes, chicken and egg. A weak economy among the providers was a strong factor in provoking entrepreneurs to turn to the drug trade, and the strong economy of the consuming nation gave greater inspiration to the providers.
So destroying the existing drug-based economy will not get strong support until everybody sees other ways to benefit from capitalist ventures.
I take no strong moral position on drug usage. I see it as a medical issue. Like gambling, it can, of course, lead to serious personal problems, family problems, and social problems.
I do, however, take a strong position in opposition to homicide. I am not "asking for help" in any direct sense. I am asking for good ideas.
There is some urgency in the matter for Juarez, especially for those being aimed at, or those who have lost or will lose loved ones.
Although the Mexican Constitution prohibits the direct involvement of foreigners in Mexican politics, there is no law prohibiting Americans from expressing their ideas about Mexico. Nor would it be possible to legally prohibit - or enforce - any law prohibiting American citizens from sharing ideas with Mexican citizens.
Unfortunately, it happens far too rarely.
Obviously, most participants on this forum are not too concerned about any Mexican law that would prohibit them from speaking out their views on Mexico.
Unless you are in some unique position affiliated with both the US and Mexican governments, there is nothing to prohibit you from offering ideas.
If I bring up any hypothetical situation, such as intervention, it is by no means intended as a plea for help.
Rather, I would like people to more fully consider the ramifications of such possibilities. As I said, I see no clearly identified factions to be subdued or controlled. Broadly speaking, the enemy is a weak economy, and a weak economy can not be simply shot and buried.
PD As should be pretty obvious by now, I'm not a member of the "TWITTER generation." As far as I'm concerned, anybody who can express their ideas in 140 characters isn't worth reading.

Voting and demanding change in mexico has done nothing for the country. Mexicans have voted for both parties who are equally corrupt. I'd say that you are fighting more than Narcoterrorists. You are fighting the government.

There is too much money in the middle.

If you fire all the cops. New ones quickly become corrupt or they become dead.

If you look for the drug dealers. You find that they have people on the take all the way up and down the chain of command.

You can try to keep drugs out of mexico. This would involved honest cops and soldiers, which don't seem to exist.

You can bring in the UN, but all they would do is witness killings and eventually get killed.

You can fire your president or your mayor, only to have them replaced by other thieves.

You can close your borders so that drugs don't have anywhere to go. This will just increase the violence internally.

You can petition for the USA to leave Afghanistan and come into Mexico to help. We'd be in Mexico for 10 yrs and never really accomplish much.

You can make impose very high tarriffs to companies manufacturing products in Mexico. Bring up the wages of the common person so that drugs are not so enticing.

Provide the general citizenry with guns. If overthrowing of the existing government is required, then you have strength in numbers. Right now, you have serious oppression.

Put up rewards of say $10,000 pesos per dead drug dealer with no repercussions to be suffered by the bounty hunter (allow foreign bounty hunters to come in).

Educate a greater portion of your population.

Equalize trade. Ensure that imports to Mexico are taxed to equalize with Mexican built products.

You are in a serious world of hurt right now. The corruption is the cancer that is killing your country. You have a country that is rich in culture, history, oil, beaches, etc. Unfortunately, a select few have ruined it for the rest of you.

Your business men need to become legitimate. Corruption has tainted too many businesses in Mexico. It's very hard to tell which businesses are legit and which ones are fronts for money washers.

Your business men united could figure out how to deal with the drug dealers. Whether it is to hire guns or make deals (more likely).

Organize all your working class and have them go on strike for a few weeks. Stop the economy of the country completely to show that drugs are not what run the country.

Unless you have power or influence over very large resources, you will have this problem for such a long time. It will be over at some point. Once they've killed your economy completely, this will stop.

You can petition the USA to legalize drugs. This will make the drug business less lucrative.

There's nothing simple that you can do to fix this problem. It's taken many years to get to this point.

The Mexican revolution accomplished very little. It is more of a romantic memory than something positive.

W/r to the USA. We have all kinds of problems and don't claim to be blameless for your problems either. We put NaFTA in place. We consume the drugs. We manipulate your oil. We are not very involved, because there is very little else that we need to control in your country. As long as your people are not educated, we will continue to take full advantage (not meant to be a bad comment). As long as your politicians are willing to sell your country for personal gain, the world will continue to take advantage. Again, we have all kinds of problems here too.

Good luck with making change.

I'd recommend anonymous reporting of the drug dealers, however, I know that the call centers are giving the information to the drug dealers and ensuring that the reporters are ending up dead.

I thought it would never happen. Somebody addressed the issues.

Pinky, as I remarked in my first post, I returned from Juarez in 2007 after a 30-year absence. That means I'm old enough to drink. That also means I'm old enough to think. Apparently the name Juan Pablo conjures up images of some kid peddling the revista PM while walking down the middle of a street in traffic slowed to a crawl.(You'll get the picture if you've ever traveled by car from Juarez to El Paso.) People my age don't roam the streets of Juarez looking for dealers to report.

I suspect any statistician calculating the odds would suggest that I may well be the oldest person on this forum, and my thirty years out of Juarez were not spent visiting Alice in Wonderland.

Forum participants have kindly advised me that the education system in Mexico is a failure - as if I would never have figured that out on my own.(I hope they're not bragging about El Paso's educational system - rated among the worst in the US.) They further advise me that there is corruption in Mexico, as though I were suffering serious brain damage and wouldn't notice on my own. Don't worry. I don't chase gunslingers down dark alleys. I gave up that sort of thing when I quit working for a major US city.

It seems that everybody has lost interest in this thread. But thanks, Pinky, for agreeing with me that outside intervention is not quite a reasonable expectation, and, in any event, would be an exercise in futility.

I was trying to get other participants to step through the same reasoning you used, and I wondered if anybody might arrive at different conclusions. But the whole thing got bogged down in crossed monologues and patronizing bits of counsel to the poor Mexican kid.

Well, this poor Mexican kid is ready to see if comments on other El Paso Times articles are as strange and irrelevant as most comments on this forum.

Pinky, you're a gem. You were the first to give me moral support, and apparently the last to give me any response at all.

It has been a strange and interesting experience here, and maybe we'll meet on some other topic. For most of the people who were here on the forum, the topic is an abstraction that vanishes the second they surf to another site. But when I log out, I get to watch "reality PC." I'll let you know when the bad guys lose, if I can find you.

Petro wrote:

Thats baloney they sent a ship to gulf war 1, Thats all they need to send . One ship with warrior spirt is worth more than 5 us ships.

Then where is that 'warrier spirit' in Mexico to deal with the cursed narcos?

The poor kid from Juarez has a chip on his shoulder and was really fishing for someone to agree with him. His attempt to appear as being picked on was a failure when he tried to use the victim/superior/inferior line. He forgot that the majority of EP is of Mexican heritage.

The fact that he was asking for UN Peacemakers indicates he doesnt know what he is talking about. Peacemakers monitor a PEACE agreement period. Where is the agreement between the Mexican government and the cartels?

With his type of thinking, there is no light at the end of the tunnel. Mexico needs LEADERS and people of vision.