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Joey

Martinsville, VA

#1 Feb 4, 2011
Was it the ark that saved Noah? Was it the water? Or was it the Lord who shut the door and used the water to lift the ark with him and his family to safety while the rest of the world perished?

Is it the faith that leads the person to the water that saves? Is it the water that washes the sin away? Or is not Peter specific in saying that our immersion is an appeal to God to cleanse away our sin and (God again) doing the work of applying the saving sacrifice of Jesus to transform us from death to life?

It seems to me that God did the saving work for Noah and does the same for each of us. Noah still had to build and get into the ark, just as we still have to trust Him as we go to the water to do something for us which the water alone cannot do. The ark was God's vehicle, without which no one was saved. Peter seems to be saying the same about submitting to immersion. Immersion is God's vehicle, through which God works to save us.

Asking whether we can be saved without immersion is asking if we can be saved without submitting to the work of God to save us. The answer to that is, or should be, very clearly "No."
Bobby

Dallas, TX

#2 Feb 5, 2011
Joey wrote:
Was it the ark that saved Noah? Was it the water? Or was it the Lord who shut the door and used the water to lift the ark with him and his family to safety while the rest of the world perished?
Is it the faith that leads the person to the water that saves? Is it the water that washes the sin away? Or is not Peter specific in saying that our immersion is an appeal to God to cleanse away our sin and (God again) doing the work of applying the saving sacrifice of Jesus to transform us from death to life?
It seems to me that God did the saving work for Noah and does the same for each of us. Noah still had to build and get into the ark, just as we still have to trust Him as we go to the water to do something for us which the water alone cannot do. The ark was God's vehicle, without which no one was saved. Peter seems to be saying the same about submitting to immersion. Immersion is God's vehicle, through which God works to save us.
Asking whether we can be saved without immersion is asking if we can be saved without submitting to the work of God to save us. The answer to that is, or should be, very clearly "No."
If it was the water that saved Noah, then God could left Noah in the water with all the wicked people so that the water could have been given the glory. Noah was in an ark which is a symbol of Christ. Water is a symbol of destruction in this case even though water is necessary for life to exist.

The word symbol means: "Something that represents something else by association, resemblance, or convention, especially a material object used to represent something invisible".

So you see if we died with Christ in the baptismal water it was only a symbol because none of us actually died in the baptismal water.

Peter 3:21 In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ

What does the water symbolize? It saves you by the ______ of Jesus Christ.
BFrank

Martinsville, VA

#3 Feb 5, 2011
BFrank

Martinsville, VA

#4 Feb 5, 2011
By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.Hebrews 11:7

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:8&9

Salvation by faith not by works,lest anyone should brag,"they are the one true church"
Barnsweb

Newman, CA

#5 Feb 5, 2011
Well, lets see what I Peter 3 says in the AENT.

14-22;
"But if it should occur that you suffer on account of righteousness, happy are you. And be not terrified by those who would terrify you, nor be in uproar: but sanctify Master YHWH the Mashiyach, in your hearts. And be you ready for a vindication before everyone who demands of you an account of the hope of your faith, in meekness and respect, as having a good conscience; so that they who speak against you as bad men may be ashamed for having maligned your good conduct in the Mashiyach. For it is profitable to you that you suffer evil while you do good deeds, if this should be the pleasure of Elohim; and not, while you do evil deeds. For the Mashiyach also died for our sins, the righteous for sinners; that he might bring you to Elohim. And he died in body but lived in spirit. And he preached to those souls when the long suffering of Elohim commanded an ark to be made, in hope of their repentance; and eight souls only entered into it and were kept alive in the waters. And you also, by a like figure, are made alive by immersion (not when you wash your bodies from filth, but when you confess Elohim with a pure conscience) and by the resurrection of Y'shua the Mashiyach who is taken up to heaven and is on the right hand of Elohim and Messengers and authorities, and powers are subject to him."

I'd liken the ark to saving faith in this example - the faith that obeyed God and did what He told Noah to do. It surely seemed an impossibility to Noah, but because he believed, he did what God told him to do, all the while preaching to the people to repent, but they didn't.

This doesn't look as convincing as the KJV about baptism, but then neither does Romans 10. Those who don't think baptism has anything to do with doing what the Lord said cannot leap that hurtle without tossing the gospel records or the book of Acts and Peter's preaching the promise of God. Yet even in Peter's famous sermon he says 'those who call upon the name of Master YHWY will be saved', and this is another name of God, or LORD as we have in our Bibles translated from the Greek. The fact is that the name of God is found in the name of Jesus, as He was named what the angel commanded from God. So Peter quoting 'calling on the name' in Acts and I Peter in no way takes away from the fact of the promise of God to all generations to come since the day of Pentecost. Yet it isn't simply the water dunking, there is the righteousness of Jesus Christ, His faithful life, death, burial and resurrection, which are things we will also do with His power and authority - not our own works. We are called to follow in His works by His Spirit, power and words in our own lives.

How is it we discuss baptism so much, when it is just the beginning? Why don't we ever talk about Acts 3:22,23? When have you last heard a sermon about the need to follow and imitate Jesus in everything He said or commanded?

http://www.onediscipletoanother.org
Barnsweb

Newman, CA

#6 Feb 5, 2011
BFrank wrote:
By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.Hebrews 11:7
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast. Ephesians 2:8&9
Salvation by faith not by works,lest anyone should brag,"they are the one true church"
"One true church"? I don't think we'll see that till be get to heaven and the called out assembly is all together. If there is only 'one true church', which of the churches that Jesus wrote to in Revelation does He identify as this one true church? and what were the reasons they were said to be the 'one true church'? Men may make that claim, but in actuality we need to return to do what the Lord said for us to do if we are truly His disciples indeed.

And that is also an individual thing that even if everyone was on the same page as the aim of our faith, we'd all be in different stages of development. True doctrine should be to abide in the teachings of Jesus Christ - not Paul, not Alexandre Campbell, not the Pope or Prophet - but Jesus Christ.(if we are Christians, if not, we can tell who someone believes in by who they listen to and obey)
Bobby

Dallas, TX

#7 Feb 5, 2011
Why do you want to cut out the writings of Paul from the Holy scriptures?

I suspect you would be disappointed if we were to cut out the words of Peter or John-etc.

There must be something in the writings of Paul "the apostle from God" that does not fit well with the doctrine you have developed. I say "you have developed" because you keep saying that you can't a church any where that teaches the truth.
Bobby

Dallas, TX

#8 Feb 5, 2011
Once the canon of Scripture is cast under a shadow of doubt and “new” scriptures are introduced, the door opens wide for great doctrinal deception by leadership and within the laity of the Hebrew Roots Movement. It’s interesting that in this area there is a similarity of the Hebrew Roots Movement with Mormon and Jehovah’s Witness methodology regarding Scripture, as both cults also have their own “versions” of the Bible,“correcting” perceived ”errors” they see in the accepted canon.

It should be noted and understood that the “new” versions of Scripture being peddled by those in the Hebrew Roots Movement are typically works written by individuals. Reliable translations of the canon have been the work of groups of linguistic scholars, providing built-in oversight and accountability within those groups. However, if one does research on the authors’ names of these “new” HRM versions, their scholarship and/or methodology come into serious question.

I think this is written by Jay Guin but cannot verify.

Here is the whole article:

http://joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com/2...
Sve

Stockholm, Sweden

#9 Feb 5, 2011
It is religion of bush-global war criminal and degenerate murderer.
Barnsweb

Newman, CA

#10 Feb 5, 2011
Thanks for the link, I'll check it out further. The fact is that I discovered about the teachings of Jesus from the Western translations, not from the Hebrew translations or Jewish Christian movement - I found it right there in the NKJV! It has been there all along!

Regarding the AENT, the Aramaic version of the NT has been extant since the earliest days of the Church, so why this is only now becoming an issue is the lack of concern those before us had and it is not a reflection on either of us.

As such, the charges and accusations of the one who penned the link you referenced rings on deaf ears in my case, as what he said is absolutely not true and appears to be an effort to not expose oneself to new ideas or growing in the truth as Jesus and the apostles gave it. Pure and simple, that is the fact.

And how did I discover the same things the Aramaic English NT people are teaching from the NKJV?

Could it be that there is a lot of false doctrines taught in the name of the Greek translations and over emphasis on the writings of Paul? I certainly think so.

Paul himself said he was the least of the apostles and didn't even deserve to be called an apostle.
Paul was telling the truth on himself, he was not being falsely humble.
Barnsweb

Newman, CA

#11 Feb 5, 2011
And on the topic of the law vs Western Christianity, the AENT has a study section where they took all 600 some laws in the Torah and noted which ones Western Christians are teaching. So before you say you aren't keeping them, you might benefit from an inventory of the ones you actually are:-) And then ask yourself if you should consider the others if they are what Jesus also taught about.
Bobby

Dallas, TX

#12 Feb 5, 2011
Paul was showing humility because of his involvement in persecuting Jesus and the church.

9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11 Whether, then, it is I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.

Yes, I am convinced that Paul's words do rings on deaf ears in your case.
Bobby

Dallas, TX

#13 Feb 5, 2011
There are hebrew roots movements out there that deny the trinity and want to blame everything on Constantine. They believe Jesus was the Messiah but He wasn't God; He was just a man.

They usually believe that intellectually accepting Jesus is enough. One is saved by the keeping of the laws, grace has nothing to do with salvation. Sometimes they give lip service to grace.

The aent was designed for such people. Of course it has a lot of truth in it, but it only takes a few bad apples to spoil the whole barrel. Those most susceptible to this are the campbellite offspring. Some of them are already accepting heresy. The Mormons and Jehovah witnesses have their own bible. The Adventist believe in British Israelism, meaning they are the offspring of the lost tribes of Israel. Arnold Murray teaches the same thing. All of these are already involved in the Hebrew roots movement and may not be aware of it. They are easy targets for those pushing aent translation.

I don't like what I am seeing here. I feel folks must be warned.

I predict that this movement will soon be addressed by bible believing grace centered churches and exposed for what it is.
Barnsweb

Newman, CA

#14 Feb 5, 2011
What really matters is what God thinks about it.
Bobby

Dallas, TX

#15 Feb 5, 2011
Barnsweb wrote:
What really matters is what God thinks about it.
Exactly, Those who reject certain parts of the bible as being the word of God don't care what God thinks about it.
Barnsweb

Newman, CA

#16 Feb 6, 2011
Indeed, some reject certain parts of the Bible in the name of grace or the name of law. In the OT sin was atoned for by sacrifice of something else - an animal, so the sinner did not pay with his own life, excepting those sins that had capital punishment. In the Law fulfilled, we still see that it was the sacrifice of another - the Son of God - which paid the penalty for sin, and that forgiveness is not earned, it was given as a condition of a covenant. God makes covenants, which are a type of agreement that has conditions. Like the movies of an heir that has to do this or that to get an inheritance, the covenant of Jesus Christ also has conditions that we are to keep. Have you studied the teachings of Jesus regarding this?

Many quote things where Jesus said 'should' as being 'shall'. Note carefully what He taught, not what some preacher is telling you.

After a lot of study and careful consideration and notations I came to the simple inescapable viewpoint I have to be based completely within what Jesus said is the words of the Father who sent Him and directed everything He was to teach.

And how many did Jesus say would call unto Him as "Lord!" and He would deny them as never knowing them because they practiced iniquity, which is lawlessness? And what law was Jesus talking about? The matter is sealed in Revelation, as those who were overcomers and faithful 'kept the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ'.

What is the commandments of God? We know this from Jesus' teachings on the topic. And what is the testimony of Jesus? It is the words He said the Father had Him give us, and that the original disciples recorded for us in the Bible.

This fits with Acts 3:22,23; this fits with all the teachings of Jesus; this fits with the writings of all the apostles EXCEPT Paul, as Paul is commonly understood.

And if you can't recognize the Pagan influence of Rome in any doctrine or practice, it is because you cannot see or you are not willing to see that what you have heard or taught is actually the truth.

Truth has nothing to fear - not even investigation of the AENT, let alone searching the Scriptures daily to see if what someone is telling you the truth is actually the whole truth. Even Satan tells half truths:-)

Even grace has conditions. And the primary condition is the Lord Jesus Christ. And did Jesus teach that people repent and prepare for the kingdom of God? Or did Jesus say just believe in Me and you don't have to do anything but be ashamed of yourself and thankful I saved you?

Disciples of Jesus Christ come to Him and His words to know the truth we are to preach and live by. If you reject His words, then you are not keeping the doctrine of Jesus Christ. If you reject His commandments you are rejecting the Lordship of Jesus Christ. You cannot actually be a disciple of the Lord and do what anyone else says but Him, in matters of faith and practice. If anyone teaches anything differently that what He taught, you'd better call it to their attention, and if they don't accept His words on the subject, you have no reason to continue fellowship with such people.
Barnsweb

Newman, CA

#17 Feb 6, 2011
Then came Jesus of Nazareth with the announcement, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Matt. 4:17). This theme of the coming of the Kingdom of God was central in His mission. His teaching was designed to show men how they might enter the Kingdom of God (Matt. 5:20; 7: 21). His mighty works were intended to prove that the Kingdom of God had come upon them (Matt. 12: 28). His parables illustrated to His disciples the truth about the Kingdom of God (Matt. 1 3: 11). And when He taught His followers to pray, at the heart of their petition were the words, "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" (Matt. 6: 10). On the eve of His death, He assured His disciples that He would yet share with them the happiness and the fellowship of the Kingdom (Luke 22: 22-30). And He promised that He would appear again. on the earth in glory to bring the blessedness of the Kingdom to those for whom it was prepared (Matt. 25:31, 34).

Are you prepared?
Barnsweb

Newman, CA

#18 Feb 6, 2011
Bobby

Dallas, TX

#19 Feb 6, 2011
Even though following Jesus comes with a cost, the new birth is based on imputed justification.

Jesus completely obeyed God and every dot and title of the law.

Do you keep all the commandments of God? Or do you pick and choose the ones to keep?

Do you keep the sabbath? Do you tithe?

In other words Jesus kept every law, and I know for a fact that no one else has. So, how are you going to be saved by law keeping when you admit that you still sin?


Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God- John 1:12

This right is accomplished by the power of the cross.The gift is dependent on mans reception of it as the words "received and "believed" make clear.

Works follow the believer, they do not have value that replaces grace.

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

Several times I have noted that probably everyone on this group has obeyed in water baptism but you keep claiming that we are disobedient (Btw,I agree with that). What do you do (which laws do you keep) that makes you more pleasing to God than the rest of us?
Barnsweb

Newman, CA

#20 Feb 6, 2011
That Paul didn't rest back on grace, as you claim he taught, is telling in itself. If Paul didn't do that, was he a hypocrite or confused or is it that most evangelicals today who preach grace and faith apart from doing whatever Jesus commanded are teaching something quite different than what Paul actually taught and believed and practiced? I submit the latter is the truth.

According to Jesus, what sanctifies us? And if Paul wrote a book that the first statement out of the pen was that it was to those who were sanctified in the Lord, I'd take that as Paul knew the requirement, and on top of this, this is why he thought so highly of the need to imitate Jesus.

And how can we imitate Jesus if we don't even seek to abide in His words?

Check out my opening remarks again Bobby.
Abide means something - it isn't the faith as you currently understand it. At least it doesn't appear to be based on your comments to me.

http://www.onediscipletoanother.org

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