FCAT's role in student preparation for the real world is debated

Susan wrote:

<quoted text>
Excuse me, but my children live in a "strong, stable, intact home", and my daughter graduated elementary school this year making the A/B honor roll, yet guess what, she's a little behind in her reading. She works hard to overcome this, which is why she made the honor roll, but she has gotten only 2's on her reading FCAT and one year got a 1. She is clearly not a studnet who should be retained, yet that is the threat that looms over her year-after-year based on how she performs on one test! Every state has standardized tesing and this testing should be administered and used as a tool in identifying areas of improvement. It should not be used, however, punitively for students who may struggle in one area, particularly if it does not impact their overall ability to succeed academically!! Retention doesn't work, and Florida has one of the highest retention rates in the country. It's no coincidence that we also have one of the highest dropout rates!!

If your definition of a strong, stable, intact home includes an involved father with no alcohol or drugs (and step-family dramas), then I guess your daughter is the exception.

Good luck to her! Being the wonderful mother that you are, I'm sure you'll pay good $$$ for her tutoring, with the total support of your husband, her father.

(By the way, I really don't get your hostility!)

steve wrote:

<quoted text>
Agree on both accounts. Without Vocational classes, I'm afraid we will see an increase in drop outs. I taught math and physics some 25 years ago. As both of you have stated, the notion that all kids can succeed in the higher academic classes is foolish. Our 1 size fits all approach decision making based on a single criteria, the FCAT, is a no win solution at any level. Unfortunately, the decision makers understand that to be a winner in Florida, you need high FCAT scores, have as many kids take AP, Bacc, and IB tests. Not pass them, just take them. ACT scores are down and SAT scores are flat. Since those and other criteria are not considered in the “winning score”, the leaders do not care. I do not know what your district is doing in math, but many districts are adopting “Connected Math” or “discovery Math” like TERC, CMP2, and Everyday Math. It is the latest fad but there is no data that substantiates any of their claims. It is very expensive and does not prepare kids for high school. Look for math scores to drop while districts feed the publishers.

Steve,

Wait to incorporate the number of AP classes students are taking in high school into the formulation for the school grade. They are going to be packed with students who should be in remedial math, yet find themselves in AP classes so the school's grade does not suffer.

It should be interesting.

steve wrote:

<quoted text>
Agree on both accounts. Without Vocational classes, I'm afraid we will see an increase in drop outs. I taught math and physics some 25 years ago. As both of you have stated, the notion that all kids can succeed in the higher academic classes is foolish. Our 1 size fits all approach decision making based on a single criteria, the FCAT, is a no win solution at any level. Unfortunately, the decision makers understand that to be a winner in Florida, you need high FCAT scores, have as many kids take AP, Bacc, and IB tests. Not pass them, just take them. ACT scores are down and SAT scores are flat. Since those and other criteria are not considered in the “winning score”, the leaders do not care. I do not know what your district is doing in math, but many districts are adopting “Connected Math” or “discovery Math” like TERC, CMP2, and Everyday Math. It is the latest fad but there is no data that substantiates any of their claims. It is very expensive and does not prepare kids for high school. Look for math scores to drop while districts feed the publishers.

Steve,

Wait till the state starts to incorporate the number of AP classes students are taking in high school into the formulation for the school grade. They are going to be packed with students who should be in remedial math, yet find themselves in AP classes so the school's grade does not suffer.

It should be interesting.

Susan wrote:

<quoted text>
...my daughter graduated elementary school this year making the A/B honor roll, yet guess what, she's a little behind in her reading. She works hard to overcome this, which is why she made the honor roll, but she has gotten only 2's on her reading FCAT and one year got a 1. She is clearly not a studnet who should be retained...

If she's scoring at level 1 or 2 on FCAT, then maybe she DOES need to be retained. I would encourage you to take a look at actual FCAT testing material (I posted a link earlier) and judge for yourself whether or not you think the skills it tests are skills that your daughter and other students should have.

As you point out, there's a disparity between your child's grades and her FCAT performance. That's the reason these standardized tests exist; grades, too often, can't be trusted because there's a tendency to inflate them.

TCC wrote:

<quoted text>
If she's scoring at level 1 or 2 on FCAT, then maybe she DOES need to be retained. I would encourage you to take a look at actual FCAT testing material (I posted a link earlier) and judge for yourself whether or not you think the skills it tests are skills that your daughter and other students should have.
As you point out, there's a disparity between your child's grades and her FCAT performance. That's the reason these standardized tests exist; grades, too often, can't be trusted because there's a tendency to inflate them.

My daughter did take the NRT last year and although she scored low on the FCAT, she scored 86 %ile on the reading NRT. A perfect example of how one test should not be the deciding factor. Perhaps the FCAT itself has flaws and some students just don't take that test well. As I said, states with superior education systems are amazed that Florida will retain a student based on one test.

Susan wrote:

<quoted text>...states with superior education systems are amazed that Florida will retain a student based on one test.

My experience has been that students' FCAT scores in elementary school are generally in line with their scores from other standardized tests (like the Stanford) in primary school. If there were a big difference in performance on a regular basis, I would be inclined to believe that the FCAT were flawed.

Also, note that the only grade level where FCAT performance can result in retention is 3rd grade. That year is considered a critical one, where students evolve from "learning to read" to "reading to learn." If they're not prepared to make that evolution, then they're not prepared for 4th grade.

It should also be mentioned that the state cannot force a school to retain a student who performs poorly on the 3rd grade FCAT. Schools have the ability to make exceptions for students, and can promote them based on a portfolio demonstrating performance.

TCC wrote:

<quoted text>
My experience has been that students' FCAT scores in elementary school are generally in line with their scores from other standardized tests (like the Stanford) in primary school. If there were a big difference in performance on a regular basis, I would be inclined to believe that the FCAT were flawed.
Also, note that the only grade level where FCAT performance can result in retention is 3rd grade. That year is considered a critical one, where students evolve from "learning to read" to "reading to learn." If they're not prepared to make that evolution, then they're not prepared for 4th grade.
It should also be mentioned that the state cannot force a school to retain a student who performs poorly on the 3rd grade FCAT. Schools have the ability to make exceptions for students, and can promote them based on a portfolio demonstrating performance.

You are correct in all that you say. Unfortunately Broward county, where I live, embraces the retention for FCAT failure every year, not just 3rd and 8th grade. Counties have the ability to go beyond the state mandated third year retention. YOu are also correct in that a portfolio review can override the FCAT score. In fact, the principal and teachers at my daughter's school already indicated that would have been the step for my daughter, as no one sees her needing retention. Unfortunately it does not counterract the anxiety caused by "the test", which we and many other families go through every year.

Susan wrote:

<quoted text>You are correct in all that you say. Unfortunately Broward county, where I live, embraces the retention for FCAT failure every year, not just 3rd and 8th grade. Counties have the ability to go beyond the state mandated third year retention. YOu are also correct in that a portfolio review can override the FCAT score. In fact, the principal and teachers at my daughter's school already indicated that would have been the step for my daughter, as no one sees her needing retention. Unfortunately it does not counterract the anxiety caused by "the test", which we and many other families go through every year.

Oh, I get it now Susan. After all your erroneous hype about the situation, we finally get to the real truth. You want an entire system of accountablity and objective testing throw out because your little darling gets anxious and test results do not confirm she is as bright as her grades, given by obviously heavily lobbied teachers, suggest. I think we may have found the real problem!! Hope you set up a big trust fund for her, we wouldn't want her to experience the stress of objective measurement later in life either. When to we start demanding the SAT be ignored?

BolognaSniffer wrote:

<quoted text>WRONG. The FCAT is misused and placed in a position of great importance in a FAKE accountability system. I have prior knowledge of you as a talking points
person unable to back your thoughts.
Did you read the recent editorial which showed that this year's tenth graders who had the great misfortune of full epxosure to the a+ plan do not have a higher percentage of proficient students. OOPS!!! Your comeback of people not wanting accountability is mistaken as well.
We want an accurate, relaiable, and fair system, not a combo political tool, public relations gimmick, and trash.

You are so pathetic, you MUST be a product of the PS system prior to FCAT.
Itead of tackling what I wrote, your first (Obama like) response was to try and dismiss me personally. Easier to insult than rebut, no?
Then you cite as your source of FACTS, a "recent editorial" just how stupid are you? I have no doubt you will continue to show us.
FYI, editorials are OPINION not FACT.

Tony,
I introduce to you the statistic that
showed no difference in percent proficient in grade 10 between pre and full exposure to the farcical A+ plan. That stat came from the editorial. I am sorry you failed to understand this simple point.
Did I also point out the folly of
believing hook, line, and sinker in the fourth grade stats? Our state retains low scorers in grade three. Thus grade four is lacking a large number of low scorers as they remain in grade three. Mathematically, when you no longer have a group of your lowest scorers, the mean will rise.
I am sorry I speak above your head.
As to your last sentence, I have been aware of this. I included a stat which was included in an editorial piece, citing a reference which would be good practice. Again, this got lost in your head.

Just for the record:

My daughters have been educated in Florida public schools for their entire education. The oldest is about to start college on a full academic scholarship, as well as a 100% Bright Futures award. She is a Merit Scholar. My youngest will be a senior in high school this year, and is also a Merit Scholar.
The worth of any education is what the student puts into it and what they get out of it. My daughters love school and excel academically because of their love of learning. That is what makes the difference for them. Because of their attitudes towards their educations, they have been highly successful, and probably will be in most of what they strive to do in life. I believe that is because of the excellent education and training they received in the Florida public educational system.
Again, if a student invests time and effort into their education, they will be well-educated no matter where they go to school. Of course, for a child to be ready to accept the education they are offered and do the best they can with it, they must have support and encouragement at home. People who continue to degrade the schools and blame them for all the ills that their unsuccessful children have suffered, are merely trying to shun their responsibility for their children’s upbringing and education.
One usually gets what they pay for in life. If students don't put in the time and effort it takes to succeed, then they have failed in their responsibilities and don’t deserve to succeed. But it just adds to the problem if that failure is blamed on a test or a school system-bottom line is that student will fail regardless of what the school system is or isn't doing for them, if they aren’t doing anything for themselves.

Just Another Teacher wrote:

Just for the record:
My daughters have been educated in Florida public schools for their entire education. The oldest is about to start college on a full academic scholarship, as well as a 100% Bright Futures award. She is a Merit Scholar. My youngest will be a senior in high school this year, and is also a Merit Scholar.
The worth of any education is what the student puts into it and what they get out of it. My daughters love school and excel academically because of their love of learning. That is what makes the difference for them. Because of their attitudes towards their educations, they have been highly successful, and probably will be in most of what they strive to do in life. I believe that is because of the excellent education and training they received in the Florida public educational system.
Again, if a student invests time and effort into their education, they will be well-educated no matter where they go to school. Of course, for a child to be ready to accept the education they are offered and do the best they can with it, they must have support and encouragement at home. People who continue to degrade the schools and blame them for all the ills that their unsuccessful children have suffered, are merely trying to shun their responsibility for their children’s upbringing and education.
One usually gets what they pay for in life. If students don't put in the time and effort it takes to succeed, then they have failed in their responsibilities and don’t deserve to succeed. But it just adds to the problem if that failure is blamed on a test or a school system-bottom line is that student will fail regardless of what the school system is or isn't doing for them, if they aren’t doing anything for themselves.

Good post. Now, lets assume that your children, and all others of their age, had gotten exactly the same grades and other rewards, regardless of individual performance or test results. Lets assume that we decided we couldn't really measure a students performance objectively, since in all fairness they all started out in different places, with different advantages (like you, a concerned involved parent) and that "education is a process", not a result. Do you think that would have maximized the educational opportunity for your kids. Now how does that teacher, seniority thing work?

Mike wrote:

<quoted text>
Good post. Now, lets assume that your children, and all others of their age, had gotten exactly the same grades and other rewards, regardless of individual performance or test results. Lets assume that we decided we couldn't really measure a students performance objectively, since in all fairness they all started out in different places, with different advantages (like you, a concerned involved parent) and that "education is a process", not a result. Do you think that would have maximized the educational opportunity for your kids. Now how does that teacher, seniority thing work?

"Again, if a student invests time and effort into their education, they will be well-educated no matter where they go to school."

I agree that our home is conducive to our daughters being well-educated. But no matter what parents instill in their children, if those children are not committed to get everything they can from that education, they will not get the most out of it. I realize that I am stating the obvious, but from what I am reading on this thread, it is not all that evident to everyone reading this.

I am an experienced teacher (33 years) and I train teaching interns. I am certified to do this in the state of Florida. One of the prerequisites to taking the training to be a Clinical Educator is teaching experience, obviously. I have had many interns in the last ten years who have become highly successful teachers. Every one of them will tell you how invaluable their semester with me was. That is mostly because of my teaching experiences and years in the field. Because I am responsible for teaching, training and evaluating these interns, I have to keep up with all that is current and new in education.
Thus, I am a senior teacher and an excellent educator. My students' tests results, both standardized and the assessments I use personally, prove that.
I believe that experience (seniority) should have be a major consideration when determining which teachers will retain their jobs. However, I also feel that accountability for student achievement should also be involved.

Just Another Teacher wrote:

<quoted text>
"Again, if a student invests time and effort into their education, they will be well-educated no matter where they go to school."
I agree that our home is conducive to our daughters being well-educated. But no matter what parents instill in their children, if those children are not committed to get everything they can from that education, they will not get the most out of it. I realize that I am stating the obvious, but from what I am reading on this thread, it is not all that evident to everyone reading this.
I am an experienced teacher (33 years) and I train teaching interns. I am certified to do this in the state of Florida. One of the prerequisites to taking the training to be a Clinical Educator is teaching experience, obviously. I have had many interns in the last ten years who have become highly successful teachers. Every one of them will tell you how invaluable their semester with me was. That is mostly because of my teaching experiences and years in the field. Because I am responsible for teaching, training and evaluating these interns, I have to keep up with all that is current and new in education.
Thus, I am a senior teacher and an excellent educator. My students' tests results, both standardized and the assessments I use personally, prove that.
I believe that experience (seniority) should have be a major consideration when determining which teachers will retain their jobs. However, I also feel that accountability for student achievement should also be involved.

Other professionals once used the seniority model. For example, major lawfirms decades ago often used a "senior partner", seniority weighted system compensation, and for a period of time got away with it, primariliy when they had a practical monopoly over certains types sophisticated legal services. However, as the business became competitive, they soon discovered the inefficency in that model. Many very senior attorneys were unable to command a high rate, and too many attorneys who road up the seniority ladder, produced less revenue each year. In tern, the more productive lawyers left and formed their own firms, or demanded reform, being crushed under the burden of subsidizing the less productive senior lawyers and the mid career ones who made enough to retire in place and recognized performance really did not matter than much.

Once the change was made to production based compensation, the firms over all profitability increased,as did client service and responsiveness. Now, finding a true seniority based system is rare except in small, family controlled firms.

If a system of compensation rewards skill and productivity, there is, in theory, no reason to reward seniority. Isn't the only legitmate basis for paying more senior teacher more an ASSUMPTION that they have more skills and higher productivity?

Mike wrote:

<quoted text>
Other professionals once used the seniority model. For example, major lawfirms decades ago often used a "senior partner", seniority weighted system compensation, and for a period of time got away with it, primariliy when they had a practical monopoly over certains types sophisticated legal services. However, as the business became competitive, they soon discovered the inefficency in that model. Many very senior attorneys were unable to command a high rate, and too many attorneys who road up the seniority ladder, produced less revenue each year. In tern, the more productive lawyers left and formed their own firms, or demanded reform, being crushed under the burden of subsidizing the less productive senior lawyers and the mid career ones who made enough to retire in place and recognized performance really did not matter than much.
Once the change was made to production based compensation, the firms over all profitability increased,as did client service and responsiveness. Now, finding a true seniority based system is rare except in small, family controlled firms.
If a system of compensation rewards skill and productivity, there is, in theory, no reason to reward seniority. Isn't the only legitmate basis for paying more senior teacher more an ASSUMPTION that they have more skills and higher productivity?

Absolutely. But I also see the statistics proving that is the case, much more frequently than not.

the only people who cant pass the FCAT are idiots and illegal immigrants who refuse to learn english.

You should check www.GenietTalks.com it is a study abroad website and has lots of
information on this topic