Bible study rules for public schools proposed

Feb 10, 2010 | Posted by: roboblogger | Full story: The Courier-Journal

FRANKFORT, Ky. - The state would create rules for teaching about the Bible in public high schools under a bill filed Monday by three Democratic senators.

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Since: May 12

Mount Sterling, KY

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#79118
May 22, 2012
 

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EssentialSalts wrote:
<quoted text>You do not answer my question at all. You sidestep around it and of course go back to homosexuality like you do with everything.

How is it okay to forgive someone for doing something that is morally reprehensible, and to punish someone for eternity if they don't believe? Why would God punish people for using the brain he gave them? Your god would be morally inferior for such behavior. He's certainly less intelligent if he can't see the flaw in that judgement.

And you are morally inferior as well, for you believe the words of a book which condone slavery, rape, murder, and infanticide, yet you want to turn around and tell people they're bad because of things they do that do _not_ hurt anyone.

Most of your posts use cliche arguments that are made with circular reasoning and divine fallacy. You can't answer a simple godd--n question. I'm sure that there are thousands of questions you've avoided on this forum. Instead of making a case for your side, you just spew madness and say "Well if that's what you want to believe."
to answer your question... The bible says the only sinner that can't be forgiven is a non believer. It says how can one rise above and ask the lord to be forgiven if one does not believe in the lord.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

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#79119
May 22, 2012
 

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juggalo wrote:
<quoted text>
So it goes back to the question of an all knowing being ..if god didn't foresee Hitler,binladen , sadam hussein etc then god wouldn't be all knowing ...if they were foreseen and there is this huge pre planned existence ..then yes being born is the problem ,they would have been created to act out their rolls in the plan ..to use one of your quotes , you can't have it both ways
that again raises the question of what sorts of attributes one would consider to be actually impossible in a god, so that such a being could not exist. Although I always say I am an agnostic atheist, I am now more and more also trying to explain that I am a hard atheist with regard to one concept of a god: that is of an allgoodallpowerfulbeing. I would consider having all-knowing being understood to be part of the allpowerful, but if it is not clear, then of course I would add allknowing.
I still do not think it is entirely impossible that there could be an allknowingallpowerful god that is not all good. I think that of the three attributes, allgood is by far the least likely in a god that was powerful enough to create a universe that has evolved as ours has, with at least one planet, earth, that has living beings which suffer as much pain as living beings on earth suffer. I do not doubt that suffering because I feel pain, and see enough evidence that other living beings feel pain, including the writings and speech of other human beings.
Would you consider the agnostic atheist position to be sensibly applied to most definitions of a god, God, or gods, and yet not required to apply to every possible definition? It matters whether one is a socalled hard or knowledge-claiming atheist when one specifies the nature of the god one is denying. I see no inconsistency in being a hard atheist with regard to only one god, and an agnostic atheist with regard to 99.999999% of the other proposed definitions of god.
Think

Horse Cave, KY

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#79120
May 22, 2012
 

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The way our schools are going now they better start letting God back in or everything will continue to go downhill.
Think

Horse Cave, KY

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#79121
May 22, 2012
 

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kellerman wrote:
It's not appropriate to teach religion in school. we live in a diverse society and can't teach all religions in schools. One has to keep these separate, it's up to the parents to inform their children on religious upbringing. I thought this issue was long solved, but i see it keeps coming back up.
But you'd probably have no problem with them teaching about gay rights and how it's ok for two people of the same sex to have sex...du go figure.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

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#79122
May 22, 2012
 

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JustSaying28 wrote:
<quoted text>
to answer your question... The bible says the only sinner that can't be forgiven is a non believer. It says how can one rise above and ask the lord to be forgiven if one does not believe in the lord.
please show where this is stated explicitly in the Bible. I would like to be able to show it to my nice Christian friends and ask them whether they agree with it. If they do, they are no longer nice persons.
However, maybe there is not a problem if one is not a sinner and does not need to be forgiven. Are you saying that non-belief itself is a sin? If one lists several specific sins, I would see whether I agree that they are actually bad enough to be called sins, rather than mistakes, or disappointing behavior. I would think it would depend partly on intent. If someone did not mean to kill another person, or killed in self-defense, it would not be quite a sin would it? But if a person know that drinking and driving was dangerous, and did not really intend to kill anyone on the road that particular time, then still he would be very close to sinning if he drank and went driving, wouldn't he?
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

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#79123
May 22, 2012
 
if..knew, not know - typo - is my question clear otherwise? would you care to list some sins for us so we know what you refer to? and maybe cite the place in the Bible where they are called sins.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

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#79124
May 22, 2012
 

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PTK wrote:
<quoted text>
Ironically, the most descriptive terminology when referencing the subject of terrorism, is actually described as "Political" terrorism.
are you claiming that how yahoo or bing or google lists something in some category is a definative statement of fact? if so, we are at the end of the world already! chaos!
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

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#79125
May 22, 2012
 

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Christian School Teacher wrote:
<quoted text>
You are right the Bible is a powerful and active word of God. It takes a person who has a personal and active relationship with Jesus Christ. Not everyone should or has the right to teach this material. I believe that if "qualified" teachers taught it, it would have a tremendous impact on the lives of our children, community, and society as a whole.
you are correct, it would have a tremendous impact if it were taught in our public schools. It would mean that we are no longer a democracy, that we no longer have religious freedom, that we are instead a theocratic tyranny - which is what many of the fundies want.

If you want to have your religion taught in a church-sponsored Sunday school, with no government funds or employees involved in an official capacity, you have that right under the first amendment freedom of religion clause. You have no right to impose your religion in public schools paid for with taxpayers money, or to have any government employee involved in facilitating the teaching of any religion in a public school, or the observing of any religion in a public school in any way disruptive to the ordinary school activities - which should include learning rational thinking, which of course would be a very dangerous thing for the fundies if it actually were learned.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

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#79126
May 22, 2012
 

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not sure which you guys you mean....
JustSaying28 wrote:
I think you guys just want to argue over it.. Why do you care so much what others believe.
let me make a guess as to why some folks are arguing - those I disagree with - and then a more educated guess as to why the folks I mostly agree with are arguing.

The ones I mostly agree with are arguing:
partly because it is interesting to express one's views, and to read the views of others. sometimes it is interesting to read the views of others we mostly agree with, and to feel that we have made new "friends" of a sort, who have the same sort of rational thinking capacity and interesting ways of expressing views similar to ours, and who often cite new information or sources, which we also find interesting.

partly not to let the ones we disagree with be the only ones to state their views, and get by with expressing nonsense (in our view) without having their ridiculous opinions debunked as being nonsense. it is a variety of not letting the other guy have the last word, or the only word - and that applies to both sides, on topix, often

maybe in some cases to try to convince someone of something, though I do not see many open-minded centrists on here, and I do not think much of anything of a rational nature could change the mind of the fundies....

as to why the fundies argue, they may enjoy it, they may feel that it makes them happy to bear witness to what they believe

they may feel that it is required of them by their religion to spread the gospel as they understand it. this they may feel as a personal responsibility or calling or pleasure or duty, or whatever, but at least they feel they should do it. maybe they think it will lead to converting people. maybe they think it will give people a chance to get converted, and then if people do not agree with them, they can gladly consign such persons to hell. I do not know the mindset of fundies when it comes to such deep inner motives. I do know that the Bible does tell them to try to convert others, and many of their individual denominations tell them to do that.

on both sides, it can be a cool place to be on a hot day, or a warm place on a cold day, to be at a computer desk somewhere, and a way to pass time - maybe while waiting for some important event later, and needing to relax a bit without feeling any pressure. we do not feel graded by a teacher or boss when we are on here, if we are non-believers especially. I do not know whether the believers feel that they are being watched and graded by some deity or supernatural being for what they write on here. maybe we should ask them.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

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#79127
May 22, 2012
 

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I am not sure I have met you before. you seem to indicate that you belong to an atheists organization, or support it, or advocate it somehow. I find it difficult to see the point of being organized as atheists. Even to be for the great civil libertarian principles of freedom of religion and non-establishment of religion, we should have a broad coalition including persons who are not atheists or agnostics or skeptics, but merely decent persons who see those values of human liberty.

I really do not quite understand your view. isn't belief something beyond reason, almost by definition? If one knows, then there is no particular need to believe. I am an agnostic to most of these matters, and do not think anyone knows much of anything about them, so I assume everyone has beliefs. Some folks believe that they know, or can prove something, and I think their belief is mistaken.

I dare to have one belief that I know something with regard to a particular definition of a God, very high capital GOD, and that is that it could not possibly exist, because of the existence of the pain I feel and observe in other living creatures. That impossible GOD is the one claimed to be allgood, allknowing, and allpowerful.

Other gods are not necessarily impossible, but are more or less silly or evil or implausible, or unacceptable in various ways. I find Hermes less unbelievable than an allgood,allknowing,allpowerful God. I could imagine meeting a Hermes somewhere in another dimension, that I otherwise did not know about. It would be a rather harmless thing, in my view, to believe in certain gods. It is a very harmful thing, in my view, to believe in other gods.

For me the issue is far more one of ethics, and of the consequence of having a belief in a god, which involves a set of other views that lead to horrible behavior - such as theocracy, persecution, terrorism, religious wars, torture, indoctrination, harassment, murders, etc. I object when folks call a belief in a god a fairy tale, since I think fairy tales are relatively harmless in comparison.

I would be interested in your views, if you wish to reply, or to explain your own views more clearly.
QIC wrote:
<quoted text>
no one called him insane, only delusional. i stand by the post. but since you bring up the sanity point
i've decided yes yes indeed one would need to be a bit crazy, clinically in order to believe beyond the point of reason, that god was plausible. there are no gods, no chance.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

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#79129
May 22, 2012
 

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I suppose folks find it interesting. I do not think that you mean to be arguing that the religion should not be taught in public schools or be a part of state laws BECAUSE there are too many different beliefs and views. It is one argument for the practicality of not trying to do it. But if everyone agreed, it still would be a terrible thing to have church and state joined in a monolithic system of oppression - as has happened in many places throughout history.
JustSaying28 wrote:
Why do you all keep arguing back and forth about it? No one is going to back down from their beliefs or agree. So what's the point. It really simple.. Religion should not be taught in public schools or be apart of state laws. There are to many different beliefs and views. It should be left up to the parents to teach their kids about religion how they want, and no one should have to live their life's by someone else's beliefs. Religion and state should be completely separate.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

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#79130
May 22, 2012
 

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havent forgotten wrote:
I could sure go for an enema right about now.
obviously some fool from louisiana has tried to use my name. I hate to think that it might be typical of folks from La. I have always protested against imposters, even against those who are mocking people I strongly disagree with. imposters are a form of scam. if anyone has any standards of civility on topix, one should oppose them, no matter whom they impersonate.

“No Referral Needed”

Since: Dec 09

Cannon, KY

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#79131
May 22, 2012
 

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Religion should only be taught as culture, not as fact, not by any means.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

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#79132
May 22, 2012
 

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Quantummist wrote:
<quoted text>
Who said I do? Go slap them for me...
I don't Support Any Individual... I support Specific Policies I agree with from Who Ever proposes them... I have No political or social ideology that out weighs Rational, Logical consideration of an issue... Any Issue... I would support an Obama policy in an Instant if it were in step with My considered position.. I would NOT support a Reagan, Bush or any parties policies that do Not fit My considered position... Then I take the Next step in picking a candidate for any office that Agrees with My views that I consider most important...
I could care less what others think important, including the policy makers....
OK, then do you mind indicating what people in politics you are with on most issues? and what do you think about their records regarding integrity, in various ways - or lack of hypocrisy, in various ways? would those personal character issues have any importance?
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

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#79133
May 22, 2012
 

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juggalo wrote:
<quoted text>
I hear a lot of Christians talking about gods will ..so my question is can prayer change gods will ?
that is a great question. please direct it to some of the fundies on here. I also wonder what they mean by God's Plan? is it something that determines everything that happens? or is it just his wish list that keeps getting thwarted by humans who do not obey it?

If it was God's plan that Jesus be crucified, then Judas was doing God's will, so poor Judas was just a scapegoat or a patsy for a nasty God. Obviously if it was God's Plan that Jesus be born and be crucified in order to die for our sins, it was God's plan that we have sins that needed to be died for - individual or original. Not a very nice plan there, God. lots of getting hurt by lots of living beings - you shoulda done better, if you were any good at being god.

“Memento mori”

Since: Jun 11

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#79134
May 22, 2012
 

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Think wrote:
<quoted text>
But you'd probably have no problem with them teaching about gay rights and how it's ok for two people of the same sex to have sex...du go figure.
I wouldn't have a problem with schools telling students about homosexuals and how they should be more accepting of them. Maybe then they won't be bullied and harassed over their sexual orientation. It's not like they're going to teach the students to be homosexual (which isn't possible in the first place).

As for schools going downhill, part of that is theists trying to remove fact-based science like evolution and force creationism into the classroom. Education has it's funding cut quite often; teachers get fired, classrooms get crowded, various programs are cut.

Your way of thinking is backwards. I guess your idea of freedom of religion is the freedom of forcing your religion onto other people. Your views of homosexuality lead me to believe you're a bigot. Your way of thinking is damaging this country; it's part of the reason we're regressing.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

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#79135
May 22, 2012
 

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The Specialist wrote:
Religion should only be taught as culture, not as fact, not by any means.
I agree. and most folks would not want it taught about as history, in an honest and comprehensive fashion. I think many things should be taught as intellectual history, a history of what various people thought in different places and different times, including our own in the Western world (socalled), rather than as facts that we know for sure. Even history is a sort of intellectual history of what folks who were known as historians or first rate journalists wrote and said, plus copies of some very helpful documents and some artifacts. Being too sure can lead to omissions of interesting stuff. and interesting stuff to the contrary is what keeps science "on its toes" so to speak.
havent forgotten

Lamoni, IA

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#79136
May 22, 2012
 

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trusted wrote:
<quoted text>•For those who believe in God no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe in God no explanation is possible.
whose quote, please? and for what purpose?
JustSaying28

Mount Sterling, KY

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#79142
May 22, 2012
 

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havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> are you claiming that how yahoo or bing or google lists something in some category is a definative statement of fact? if so, we are at the end of the world already! chaos!
Revelation 21:8

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death

Mark 16:15-16

And he said to them,“Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Romans 10:14

How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
PhiTK

East Bernstadt, KY

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#79144
May 22, 2012
 

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havent forgotten wrote:
<quoted text> are you claiming that how yahoo or bing or google lists something in some category is a definative statement of fact? if so, we are at the end of the world already! chaos!
No, I was referencing the real world. Not virtual sales order pitches, delusional, or make believe.

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