Police Pensions and Voodoo Actuarials

by Steven Greenhut 11/06/2009

A key argument that public-safety officials use to justify their absurdly high pension benefits –- i.e.,“3 percent at 50” retirements that allow them to retire with 90 percent or more of their final year’s pay as early as age 50 -- is this: We die soon after retirement because of all the stresses and difficulties of our jobs. This is such a common urban legend that virtually every officer who contacts me mentions this “fact.” They never provide back-up evidence.

Here are the CalPERS life expectancy data for miscellaneous members:

-- If the current age is 55, the retiree is expected to live to be 81.4 if male, and 85 if female.
-- If the current age is 60, the retiree is expected to live to be age 82 if male, and 85.5 if female.
-- If the current age is 65, the retiree is expected to live to be age 82.9 if male, and 86.1 if female.

Here is the CalPERS life expectancy data for public safety members (police and fire, which are grouped together by the pension fund):

-- If the current age is 55, the retiree is expected to live to be 81.4 if male, and 85 if female.
-- If the current age is 60, the retiree is expected to live to be age 82 if male, and 85.5 if female.
-- If the current age is 65, the retiree is expected to live to be age 82.9 if male, and 86.1 if female.

The report also casts doubt on the commonly repeated statistic that police have higher rates of suicide and divorce than other people. The federal report found the divorce rates to be average and suicide rates to be below average. This is important information because it debunks a key rationale for the retirement expansions, although more recent data need to be examined on divorce/suicide rates.

Police have an oftentimes tough job, but many Americans have oftentimes tough and sometimes dangerous jobs. This needs to be kept in perspective. Public officials need to deal in reality rather than in emotionally laden fantasy when considering the public policy ramifications of pensions.

Mike you are a tool. What do you do for a living?

Why is he a tool? I believe this is the information people need. We're getting fleeced and the public employees unions constantly lie and obfuscate in order to justify stealing more tax dollars to support their luxurious compensation and benefits packages.

Anon wrote:

Why is he a tool? I believe this is the information people need. We're getting fleeced and the public employees unions constantly lie and obfuscate in order to justify stealing more tax dollars to support their luxurious compensation and benefits packages.

Anon Thanks for understanding what I am doing. I use to post a ton of comments on the contra Costa times forums. I would only comment on police and firefighters pensions and pay. but it turns out that the only people that comment on that forum are cops. And every time I said something they did not want people to know. They some how had you removed. The way I look at it is I will not stop posting the truth about these guys until more people understand that the only criminals in California are the unions these guys work for. I am shocked at how the public is clueless on how much cops and firefighters get paid and they are just as clueless when it comes to the pensions that they get at 50 years old. I really enjoyed reading your comments to 81 Hater. And yes I thought about how I wanted the heading to read Firefighters get paid over $140,000. And to the other Mike that called me a tool and ask what I do for work. I am a Contractor and my brother in law works for the SRPD and my uncle retired as chief of police for over 30 years. So Mike D I think it is safe to say you are officer retard

Thanks Mike, keep up the good work. I hope you support and point people to HJTA as well? The Howard Jarvis Taxpayer's Association. They are an ally in the war on the taxpayer, and they don't shy from a fight, no matter who is bringing it. They have also exposed the abusive public pension scam that has been foisted on California taxpayers up and down the state.

I support cops in most of their efforts, I support them as individuals, but I can't support their lobby until they are ready to play ball and live in reality with the rest of us. They have not only refused to give any ground on compensation, but they habitually have refrained from using their considerable political power to do the right thing on hot button issues that directly affect their jobs and their own safety and effectiveness as law enforcement professionals, and I think that's a real shame. For example, they have refused to take on the open borders lobby and insist that cities uphold the law, rather than flaunt it and become "sanctuary" cities. They sit by while politicians, biased sellout politicians, fiddle with the laws and create policies of selective enforcement, which menaces the public and breeds crime in our communities.

So, politically I oppose everything police unions lobby for. They have been able to strong arm spineless beaurocrats and to bribe corrupt politicians with their support, but they are not going to be able to withstand the coming tax revolt. Changes in their operating model are going to come, not out of a desire to change, but necessity, and frankly, I can't wait.

Whether any of the reforms that will surely follow will be enough to rescue us from this financial quagmire we've been pushed into remains to be seen, but just watching all the hubris unwind might provide some satisfaction.

Bad times are coming to California. People thought the bad times already came, but they were wrong.

Anon That last line about bad times is soooooooo true. The one person that I like is Richard Rider. This story was from a email I got from him.

I think everyone should read his critique about the triple dip pension scam: http://www.foxandhoundsdaily.com/blog/richard...

This should infuriate anyone who pays taxes, who isn't a party to the scame, ie, a state or local employee.

mike and anon - too bad neither of you enjoy life, so sad you two both are. good god, paaathetic the amount of time you both spend on here for what exactly - a lot of whining it appears. i do not need a response from either of you, as i don't caaare, just wanted to comment that maybe you both should try to get a life already. This site should not be the end-all, be-all for anyone.

new mama wrote:

mike and anon - too bad neither of you enjoy life, so sad you two both are. good god, paaathetic the amount of time you both spend on here for what exactly - a lot of whining it appears. i do not need a response from either of you, as i don't caaare, just wanted to comment that maybe you both should try to get a life already. This site should not be the end-all, be-all for anyone.

Well that's just unfounded. Sure I spend some time online - I do all my work online, for starters, but I'd guess that I might spend probably 20 minutes a day on Topix alone! It gives me something to read while waiting on errands or appointments, and it beats the heck out of the tabloid US Weekly/People magazines in the waiting room at the doctor's office!

I enjoy life plenty and while I don't know Mike, I'm guessing he does too. You might consider it whining but others consider these types of forums and the dissent and criticism found here a public service and a duty to inform/educate. And no matter which side of an issue you might take, I think even you can agree that passionate people with strong opinions are apt to enjoy things more intensely than apathetic people.

I've participated in several activist groups for various causes over the years, come from a family who gets involved in diverse causes, and know a lot of people socially who are "politically active". What I've observed is that even though people who are willing to sacrifice their time and efforts to a cause is typically a tiny fraction of the general population, that's often all it takes.

I've also learned that most of these people tend even in their personal lives to be engaged in things that consume their attention, for example like a serious hobby or pastime, and are happiest when they have the opportunity to compete, affect change, or influence others. Many of them have had many careers in their lives and a great many fulfilling experiences. I met a lot of such folks working on the Ron Paul campaign. You'd probably label all of them whiners, but they include Republicans, Democrats, and many Independents, truly a cross section of people interested in the populist message and convinced of the necessity of reigning in our government.

Its a pity you don't get out more, meet people like that, you'd quickly realize how narrow the "idea box" you live in really is.

Too bad you have to work till 65 collect SSI....Anon I guess I'd be bitter also. You don't support cops! It is you that is not in reality! Until you get inside and really see what Law Enforcement is really like, not outside looking in passing Judgement on a job you know nothing about. Just your silly ideas on how it should be. You cant think outside the box.

Oh lil Anon, you crack me up. You think YOU are doing a public service here and educating people? WTF?!? What Planet are you from?! What is it that you are doing when you go back and forth name calling and arguing with posts... educating, or does that fall under public serive!? hahaha.

You spent twenty minutes just with this post above alone. You need a reality check big time.

Anyway Anon - here is something for you to read as you run arrands to the nut house. Oh, I guess that is me providing you a public service... And you might want to get that rash checked somewhere else as you have WAY too many doctor office visits, per the amount of posts you have on here.

Did new mama not indicate she was not interested in a reply? Did you miss that? Oh no, it is just that you cannot ever ever refrain and control yourself.

While you are on here, the rest of us are actually enjoying life rather than complaining about it. How's that workin for ya?

I understand peoples' amazement when it comes to public safety officials' pensions and salaries, but when the shit hits the fan you want the best, most effective response possible right? You won't complain about a fire fighters' salary when they pull you out of a car or carry you out of a building or perform one of the many types of rescues that they specialize in. Nor will you complain about the police officers' pension when they pull over the guy that almost ran you over, or arrest the person who just committed a crime against you. I know that most people will never find themselves in immediate need of help but those who do probably don't complain about the benefits given to those that protect us.

Raider Fan wrote:

Oh lil Anon, you crack me up. You think YOU are doing a public service here and educating people? WTF?!? What Planet are you from?! What is it that you are doing when you go back and forth name calling and arguing with posts... educating, or does that fall under public serive!? hahaha.
You spent twenty minutes just with this post above alone. You need a reality check big time.
Anyway Anon - here is something for you to read as you run arrands to the nut house. Oh, I guess that is me providing you a public service... And you might want to get that rash checked somewhere else as you have WAY too many doctor office visits, per the amount of posts you have on here.
Did new mama not indicate she was not interested in a reply? Did you miss that? Oh no, it is just that you cannot ever ever refrain and control yourself.
While you are on here, the rest of us are actually enjoying life rather than complaining about it. How's that workin for ya?

That post took me less than 5 minutes. This one, less than 30 seconds and that includes reading your disjointed rant.

Raider Fan wrote:

Oh lil Anon, you crack me up. You think YOU are doing a public service here and educating people? WTF?!? What Planet are you from?! What is it that you are doing when you go back and forth name calling and arguing with posts... educating, or does that fall under public serive!? hahaha.
You spent twenty minutes just with this post above alone. You need a reality check big time.
Anyway Anon - here is something for you to read as you run arrands to the nut house. Oh, I guess that is me providing you a public service... And you might want to get that rash checked somewhere else as you have WAY too many doctor office visits, per the amount of posts you have on here.
Did new mama not indicate she was not interested in a reply? Did you miss that? Oh no, it is just that you cannot ever ever refrain and control yourself.
While you are on here, the rest of us are actually enjoying life rather than complaining about it. How's that workin for ya?

I see how it works. If you don't agree with something everyone just starts in with all the name calling. Just let this be a wake up call to all the police and firefighter unions. The people of California are starting to understand how easy that you have had it. And we will put a stop to it. When more people wake up and see that police and firefighters in California cost us 50% more then any other state. Then I will be happy.

mike wrote:

<quoted text>I see how it works. If you don't agree with something everyone just starts in with all the name calling. Just let this be a wake up call to all the police and firefighter unions. The people of California are starting to understand how easy that you have had it. And we will put a stop to it. When more people wake up and see that police and firefighters in California cost us 50% more then any other state. Then I will be happy.

HAha - ok, good luck Mike "power to the people". Give me a break. I think the cops in Livermore are pretty useless, but we have no power as civilians when it comes to unions... noooone. But good luck with that. I mean if WE did, would we really pay what we pay to ride BART? um, nope.

Explain please Miiike, just how will you 'put a stop to it', just how? hahaha. Sorry you cannot be happy and that what other folks make dictated your happiness, or lack thereof.

Next.

Raider Fan wrote:

<quoted text>
HAha - ok, good luck Mike "power to the people". Give me a break. I think the cops in Livermore are pretty useless, but we have no power as civilians when it comes to unions... noooone. But good luck with that. I mean if WE did, would we really pay what we pay to ride BART? um, nope.
Explain please Miiike, just how will you 'put a stop to it', just how? hahaha. Sorry you cannot be happy and that what other folks make dictated your happiness, or lack thereof.
Next.

To start with I think livermore has some of the BEST cops around and I feel the same about our firefighters. The problem is we can have the same quality for half the money. We know how you think. Raider Fan. Nothing will change. That team will always suck!! Next

mike wrote:

<quoted text>To start with I think livermore has some of the BEST cops around and I feel the same about our firefighters. The problem is we can have the same quality for half the money. We know how you think. Raider Fan. Nothing will change. That team will always suck!! Next

Mike, I'm sorry to inform you that you are incorrect. What is out there in this world that is currently quality, and you can get it at half price somewhere else. Doesn't happen in life bud.

Problem is Mike, your reading all these wonderful media articles, but they are not telling the whole story (big surprise). I read one of the articles you posted and I found that it was not about the rank and file, but about managers. I can't quote paychecks, but don't upper managers of most companies (approx 100 or so employees) make that kind of money?

Here's the deal Mike. There are 100's of applicants for these jobs, yet only 1 or 2 actually makes selection. If you want that 1 or 2 to go elsewhere and take your chances with the other 98...well, you keep offering that half price deal. You get what you pay for friend.

Just a few lyrics and not directed at you specifically...

If I could be you, if you could be me
For just one hour, if we could find a way
To get inside each other's mind
If you could see you through my eyes
Instead your own ego I believe you'd be
I believe you'd be surprised to see
That you've been blind

Walk a mile in my shoes
just walk a mile in my shoes
Before you abuse, criticize and accuse
Then walk a mile in my shoes

81 Hater wrote:

<quoted text>
Mike, I'm sorry to inform you that you are incorrect. What is out there in this world that is currently quality, and you can get it at half price somewhere else. Doesn't happen in life bud.
Problem is Mike, your reading all these wonderful media articles, but they are not telling the whole story (big surprise). I read one of the articles you posted and I found that it was not about the rank and file, but about managers. I can't quote paychecks, but don't upper managers of most companies (approx 100 or so employees) make that kind of money?
Here's the deal Mike. There are 100's of applicants for these jobs, yet only 1 or 2 actually makes selection. If you want that 1 or 2 to go elsewhere and take your chances with the other 98...well, you keep offering that half price deal. You get what you pay for friend.
Just a few lyrics and not directed at you specifically...
If I could be you, if you could be me
For just one hour, if we could find a way
To get inside each other's mind
If you could see you through my eyes
Instead your own ego I believe you'd be
I believe you'd be surprised to see
That you've been blind
Walk a mile in my shoes
just walk a mile in my shoes
Before you abuse, criticize and accuse
Then walk a mile in my shoes

What are you talking about???? Please feel free to tell us more

81 Hater wrote:

<quoted text>
Mike, I'm sorry to inform you that you are incorrect. What is out there in this world that is currently quality, and you can get it at half price somewhere else. Doesn't happen in life bud.
Problem is Mike, your reading all these wonderful media articles, but they are not telling the whole story (big surprise). I read one of the articles you posted and I found that it was not about the rank and file, but about managers. I can't quote paychecks, but don't upper managers of most companies (approx 100 or so employees) make that kind of money?
Here's the deal Mike. There are 100's of applicants for these jobs, yet only 1 or 2 actually makes selection. If you want that 1 or 2 to go elsewhere and take your chances with the other 98...well, you keep offering that half price deal. You get what you pay for friend.

Other places have top shelf public safety and don't have the abusive pension schemes that are so common here in CA.
CA is truly an anomaly. When stuff goes awry here, it is often REALLY screwed up.

Raider Fan wrote:

<quoted text>
HAha - ok, good luck Mike "power to the people". Give me a break. I think the cops in Livermore are pretty useless, but we have no power as civilians when it comes to unions... noooone. But good luck with that. I mean if WE did, would we really pay what we pay to ride BART? um, nope.
Explain please Miiike, just how will you 'put a stop to it', just how? hahaha. Sorry you cannot be happy and that what other folks make dictated your happiness, or lack thereof.
Next.

We have power as voters too. And when people attend our local city councils as residents, they know we are voters, and we are evaluating their job performance. Of course, for a complete housecleaning in local politics things have to get pretty bad.