Teen Who Attacked Man Outside of Anatolia Cafe Sentenced to 7 Years

Citizens need to arm themselves. Tough guys robbing civilians. But will they rob a drug dealers? No. I always loved the Death Wish movies. Citizens need to send a message.

Reading the story, using a firearm in this situation is questionable. The law states that the only time deadly force is permissible is if you have every right to believe you were in jeopardy of "serious bodily harm or death."

We know what death is, but serious bodily harm is a gray area that has no legal definition. Therefore, it's up to the prosecutor, jury and judge to determine if your definition of serious bodily harm was acceptable.

If he used his firearm before the lowlife presented a deadly weapon, then it's just a sheer possible attack. After he was struck, he was down and had no ability to take out his weapon.

It's likely that the victim would not have been jailed because he used a firearm. There are organizations like the NRA or Ohio Concealed Carry to offer support. But who wants to go through all that?

As a CCW holder, I think under that circumstance, I would have brought out my gun, but not used it until I seen a weapon from the attacker. Although, once you brandish a gun, that usually stops the attack.

Not being familiar with this restaurant, they may serve alcohol which at the time, would have made it illegal for you to have a weapon in the business. That law changed a few months ago.

Funny, it's never a gray area where police are concerned. On average, 56-year-old men do not have the ability to defend themselves against 17-year-old males. If trained police officers are allowed to use deadly force, why should untrained men have to suffer beatings?

One blow can disable a person. After that, he or she is helpless and can be beat severely. A person is under no obligation to sustain a beating. You try to talk the situation down or walk away. If you are pursued, draw your weapon. As you said, in most cases this will end the threat. But if it doesn't, defend yourself.

All this assumes you did nothing to start and/or escalate the situation(this can't be stressed enough). Sorry, I have a family to go home to. I am under no obligation whatsoever to risk serious physical harm by engaging in physical combat(a fight). I don't care if I am the size of a defensive end and trained in various martial arts. One mistake and I am on the ground getting beat into a coma and/or my weapon is being used against me.

My statement to police would be the truth: I feared serious bodily harm and/or death. All other communication would be through my attorney. My attacker would most likely be a black male. Since black males are preying on black males in record number, I'd like to see the court say my fears were unjustified.

My size is also a defense. Unarmed individuals do not approach muscular 6'4" 270 pound men in an aggressive manner. Either they are armed or hold some kind of perceived advantage. If one, two, or three 5'10 150 pound "homies" are targeting me, I already know what's going down.

Another thing most people aren't aware of is how easy weapons are concealed by thugs(could be a black snub in his hand concealed by an over-sized sleeve). You hesitate, you get shot. You don't have to see a weapon in order to believe the thug is armed. Besides, if cops can mistake phones for weapons, what would make me an expert in a stressful situation?

You're not. But take note how the officers are treated if they make such a mistake; particularly if the cop is white and the suspect is black. Cops do go through hell when they make a bad judgement call.

As for not being the aggressor or person who escalated the problem, it's against the law to use your firearm in such a situation. If I get into a heated argument with somebody on the street, he attacks me with a weapon or not, I'm disabled from using my firearm legally. In any given situation, if you are armed, you have to (by law) do everything you can to remove yourself from that heated discussion or argument.

This gray area was created for a reason. It's so that you use common sense when making a call whether to use your firearm. If the law stated that you can shoot somebody that you feel is suspicious of attacking you because he reached into his coat for something, it's an easy out if it's somebody you wanted to kill anyway. You may know this person and also know he would not attack you. But hey, he stuck his hand in his coat, so I'm protected! This is the type of thing they were trying to avoid.

In each case, it's a judgement call. The State only wants you to use your weapon only if you have to. The laws were written this way so we don't end up like Dodge City and using loopholes to justify a shooting. I can live with that. What I don't like about our laws pertaining to firearms is the liability. If I shoot and kill somebody, the police and investigators come out and said I had every legal right to defend myself, the family can still sue me for wrongful death. This is something I think should be changed. Sure, I don't want to end up seriously hurt or dead, but I don't want to lose my house over it either.

I think we are in agreement on everything here. The only concern I really have about self-defense is financial.

First, if anything is "questionable" or if the prosecutor is trying to prove a point, it is going to cost me money to get justice. Let's face it, in a lot of cases things can go either way.

Second, the family is probably going to try to seek a payday because some bloodsucking lawyer will convince them to do so.

People assume just because they did the right thing it won't cost them. There are anti-gun nuts just waiting in the wings. But I'd rather that fight than death.

Absolutely correct. But the tides are changing when it comes to self defense. This is because (as I mentioned) the citizens and politicians are siding with the innocent rather than the accused. Thirty years ago, it was the exact opposite.

DA's are cautious today when deciding a case. After the Castle Doctrine was enacted, there was an old man on the east side of Cleveland who gunned down an attacker trying to get into his house. He had been robbed before. After he scared the attacker off, the subject tried to run away through a gated fence. When he couldn't figure out how to open the gate, he then charged at the old man who was openly on his porch. He shot and killed the intruder, and the police ruled it justifiable.

Mind you, the Castle Doctrine only protects you in your home, and not on your property. But the police nor the DA pushed the issue because they knew that the citizens are sick and tired of lowlifes busting into their homes.

Yes, there is a gray area, but that gray area is now in favor of the innocent over the attacker. This is why in the story you presented, I believe that if that victim was armed and killed the suspect, there would be no charges filed against him. At the very least, any charge brought against him would have been dropped.

Politicians know where their bread is buttered. In the State of Ohio, we now have over 250,000 CCW holders, and classes for new licenses are still backed up.

Citizens have made tremendous progress in just the last 10 years. I hope we continue to expand our abilities to defend ourselves and our property. Like Texans, I would like us to be able to use deadly force to protect our property. Catch a little thug trying to steal your car and blaze away.

I'd also like our carrying while in the vehicle laws to be like the laws in Florida.

They recently switched the law along with the so-called Bar Bill. Not only can you carry your weapon in restaurants and bars, but you can now have your handgun anywhere in the car. Prior to that, you had to store it in the glove compartment or console. It also had to be in a holster as well.

Because of that incident in Canton where the cop hassled and arrested a guy with a CCW, they are working on changing the Police Notification law. Along with that idiot cop in Canton, another CCW holder was arrested in Beechwood. These cops have a grudge against CCW holders and are using excuses to arrest people. Once the Notification Law is repealed, that will be the end of police harassment. It's a shame a few bad cops have to ruin it for all the other police. I think the notification law is a good one, but not if bad cops are going to use it as an opportunity to vent their anger.

Once again, this movement is strong, but like anything else: baby steps, baby steps. So I think that in your lifetime, we will likely see a law that states you can protect your property. In my lifetime, I hope I see a law protecting victims from liability.

I don't care for the notification law. I'm a student of history, and I know how power can be abused. The police can take care of themselves.

mapleman wrote:

Citizens need to arm themselves. Tough guys robbing civilians. But will they rob a drug dealers? No. I always loved the Death Wish movies. Citizens need to send a message.

I like movies where there's a gang of thugs that attack a guy walking down the street by himself and the guy just happens to be a black belt! LOL! I love to see the thugs get cremated by the guy! lol!

Fed Up wrote:

<quoted text>
I like movies where there's a gang of thugs that attack a guy walking down the street by himself and the guy just happens to be a black belt! LOL! I love to see the thugs get cremated by the guy! lol!

Well I'm a black belt, and let me tell you, television is different from reality. Martial arts is a great defense, but the likelihood of walking away from seven guys attacking you is not very good, I don't care how much martial arts you know. That's why I'm a CCW holder today, and trust me, I have a much better chance at walking away with my 9mm and 15 round clip compared to the skills I acquired in martial arts.

xxxrayted wrote:

<quoted text>
Well I'm a black belt, and let me tell you, television is different from reality. Martial arts is a great defense, but the likelihood of walking away from seven guys attacking you is not very good, I don't care how much martial arts you know. That's why I'm a CCW holder today, and trust me, I have a much better chance at walking away with my 9mm and 15 round clip compared to the skills I acquired in martial arts.

I know television and reality are two different things. I just meant I like seeing when one guy beats the daylights out a a pack of thugs. You'll notice that on tv, the thugs all stand in a circle around the one guy and attack him one at a time. And then, maybe two at a time. In real life, the thugs would either just shoot the guy or all attack him at once. Thuglets don't seem to stand a chance in a one on one situation. That's why they attack in packs, like cowards.

Fed Up wrote:

<quoted text>
I know television and reality are two different things. I just meant I like seeing when one guy beats the daylights out a a pack of thugs. You'll notice that on tv, the thugs all stand in a circle around the one guy and attack him one at a time. And then, maybe two at a time. In real life, the thugs would either just shoot the guy or all attack him at once. Thuglets don't seem to stand a chance in a one on one situation. That's why they attack in packs, like cowards.

The best self-defense is awareness. You ever notice how many people are just oblivious to their surroundings? When it's night, I always examine my car from a distance before I approach it. I don't care where I am. Thugs like to jump out from around and behind cars.

Most people can't be bothered with taking such precautions. Too busy yapping on their iPhones about something like what they had for lunch. What about those dingbats walking in parking lots and digging in their purses? They are easy pickings for thugs. Have your d@mn keys in hand before leaving the store.

Even when learning gun and knife defense, my instructor kept telling us awareness was the biggest part of self-defense. As long as I stay aware of my surroundings, I hope to never have to use any of my training.

Exactly. The moves used by actors are called Kata's. They are pre-planned moves for the martial artist. We used to have to do at least one with every belt.

Mind you, by the time you reach black belt, you know several ways to kill a man in four moves or less. But by the time you kill one, the other ones will have your arms and legs bound.

Each belt had a theme to it. One belt, they may be focused on kicks. Another belt might be focused on positioning your opponent so you can break an arm or a leg. But as you move upwards in belts, they start teaching the nitty-gritty. There is no such term as "dirty fighting" when it comes to martial arts. Everything is acceptable.

In one of the upper belts, they taught gouging eyes. I don't mean poke them either. You are trained to use your fingers to go through the eyelid and eyeball into the head. Another one was focused on balls. You had to do moves with your teacher where you grab the inside of his pant leg simulating grabbing his balls, and rip up as hard as you can. In a real fight, you're supposed to try and rip the bag open.

Each belt had about twenty or so moves. Even though you're supposed to have the mindset on protecting yourself, some of those moves made my skin crawl. LOL!

I'm not a black belt but I'm what's called a Black Footatodabals. What that is is a swift, fast kick to the 'acorns. In my home, I have some friends to help me if there's ever need to. Their names are Smith and Wesson and Colt. LOL!

Seriously, I also see people walking around and not watching to see what's going on around them. I always watch what others are doing and listen to what's happening around me. If you hear whispering and shuffling and see a group trying not to make it TOO obvious that they're scoping you out, that could be trouble.

People in stores, mostly women, look pretty vulnerable a lot. They leave their open purses in the shopping cart and pay no attention to it. How many times I could have ran off with the contents of the purse, if I were a piss-ant thug. A couple times I mentioned to a woman that she shouldn't leave her purse unattended and open in the top of the shopping cart like that but they just felt I should mind my own business so, I guess one day I'll be reading about them in the crime sections of the paper.

The only thing I hated about "traditional martial arts" was the lack of contact. That is why you hear about so many black belts getting their a$$es kicked. Once they get hit for real, years of training go out the window. lol The tournaments are a joke; you only go against your own discipline and/or limited to stand up or ground. I've seen black belts that don't even know how to sprawl. lol They end up on the ground getting the shyt beat out of them. Ever seen a Taekwondo guy try to defend a takedown? It's pathetic.

Plus a lot of these schools just hand out belts to take people's money. It's sad. It gives people a false sense of courage. Some thug who was boxing inside of jail will literally hurt these people.

I blame Hollywood. They make it look so glamorous. Choreography. Fly kicks. One guy beating up five guys. Real fights don't happen like that.

Once I switched over to MMA style of training, it was like night and day. Nothing like knowing boxing, wrestling, BJJ, and how to land and defend kicks. Plus you actually have to be in shape to participate. The BJJ part teaches you all the "dirty" self-defense shyt.

Martial arts are like anything else. Some are good at it and some are not. My teachers brother was a guy half my size and weight. If you found out your wife was screwing around, went to a bar, and was looking for somebody just to beat the hell out of to take your anger out, you would probably pick this guy. Big mistake. That skinny little guy hits so hard and so accurate, you wouldn't believe it.

Over 90% of my training was hands on. Yes, we know all sorts of ways to kick, but it's another one of those Hollywood things that give people the wrong impression about martial arts. The advantage of martial arts is you have no idea what's coming because you are expecting somebody to defend themselves like a street fighter. Unless you are involved in martial arts yourself, you are probably going to get blindsided.

Somebody asked me one time if a regular guy could beat a martial arts person in a fight. It's not likely, but yes, it can happen. Martial artists are disabled by quick jabs where the arm is immediately retracted. Once you throw a punch and extend your arm like so many do, you're likely a goner. You will probably end up with a broken arm or jaw.

Fed Up wrote:

I'm not a black belt but I'm what's called a Black Footatodabals. What that is is a swift, fast kick to the 'acorns. In my home, I have some friends to help me if there's ever need to. Their names are Smith and Wesson and Colt. LOL!
Seriously, I also see people walking around and not watching to see what's going on around them. I always watch what others are doing and listen to what's happening around me. If you hear whispering and shuffling and see a group trying not to make it TOO obvious that they're scoping you out, that could be trouble.
People in stores, mostly women, look pretty vulnerable a lot. They leave their open purses in the shopping cart and pay no attention to it. How many times I could have ran off with the contents of the purse, if I were a piss-ant thug. A couple times I mentioned to a woman that she shouldn't leave her purse unattended and open in the top of the shopping cart like that but they just felt I should mind my own business so, I guess one day I'll be reading about them in the crime sections of the paper.

This is true. How many times have we read a story where a woman left her keys and kid in the car, and some lowlife stole the car right in front of her? Women are not as cautious as men in most cases.

In our neighboring city of Garfield Heights, we have an Ohio Savings bank where they keep the ATM machine way in the back next to a small hill that has some small trees and grass on it. It's dark there, and I'm always cautious when I use that machine at night. I pop my card in, and view my surroundings. I punch a few buttons, and again, view my surroundings. It wouldn't take much for some lowlife to be hiding behind that bank and sneak up on you within a few seconds.

Since I got my CCW, I'm less worried about that ATM machine and other places I go to at night. I take that gun just about everywhere. It's better to have it and not need it. People here don't fight with fists anymore. They fight with guns.

xxxrayted wrote:

Martial arts are like anything else. Some are good at it and some are not. My teachers brother was a guy half my size and weight. If you found out your wife was screwing around, went to a bar, and was looking for somebody just to beat the hell out of to take your anger out, you would probably pick this guy. Big mistake. That skinny little guy hits so hard and so accurate, you wouldn't believe it.
Over 90% of my training was hands on. Yes, we know all sorts of ways to kick, but it's another one of those Hollywood things that give people the wrong impression about martial arts. The advantage of martial arts is you have no idea what's coming because you are expecting somebody to defend themselves like a street fighter. Unless you are involved in martial arts yourself, you are probably going to get blindsided.
Somebody asked me one time if a regular guy could beat a martial arts person in a fight. It's not likely, but yes, it can happen. Martial artists are disabled by quick jabs where the arm is immediately retracted. Once you throw a punch and extend your arm like so many do, you're likely a goner. You will probably end up with a broken arm or jaw.

I agree, some or good and some are bad. But most martial artists never tested their skills in a full-contact sparring scenario that was "anything goes"(except eye gouging, groin shots, etc). A fight scenario? Even fewer.

I've seen guys walk into the gym with martial arts training and just get demolished. Wrestlers usually are better trained than the average martial artist. Your average high school wrestler is virtually a black belt in wrestling by senior year. The difference is they spar every session.

Speaking from my experience in BJJ, trying to do the moves as they are taught and rehearsed vs doing them when someone is punching you in the face are two different things. I've had the facial bruising and busted lips to prove it. lol Most traditional martial artists never experience this. That's why when they enter MMA(or a real fight) they usually are in for a rude awakening.

One time we had a black belt come in to train. He was a black belt in a striking art. After a couple of sessions, he wanted to spar. Big mistake. I didn't mean to, put I put him on the shelf for about eight weeks. He had no grappling defense to speak of(insisted he could hold his own). He actually could have been crippled by the neck crank and I got reamed out for doing it. But he was just too damn arrogant. lol

Well........ you can't use that guy as the epitome of all martial artists. True, we have very little hands on experience in a real fight. We practice moves with teachers, have our own little contests, but nothing life threatening of course.

When I was studying black belt (which takes a year for that belt alone) I questioned my teacher about all the training I had. I told him that I now know over 190 moves. If I am attacked, do I sit there and figure out which one I am going to use?

This is when it all came together. He said you don't think about anything except defending yourself. Forget every move you've learned. He cited the movie Karate Kid. I don't know if you've seen the movie, but in that movie, the instructor had the student perform tasks in a certain way. The student didn't know it, but in performing these chores, the teacher was actually burning martial arts techniques into his head so he would never forget.

While I was studying martial arts, my teacher would announce his attack before I practiced the move he just taught me. It was either against a right punch, left punch, a kick, or attack me with a wrestling move. This time, he said he was just going to attack me without telling me how, and I should just defend myself without thinking.

On his first attack, I, I just went into action. I don't know the move I used, when or if I learned it. It just came out of me. He proceeded with another attack, and the same thing happened.

He explained that if you are going to stand there reviewing everything you learned, you are going to get your ass kicked. Don't think about it. Just react as if you never had a karate lesson in your life.

So I think what you witnessed was a martial arts guy who was too focused on martial arts, and not defending himself naturally. If you just defend yourself by instinct, the martial arts just comes out of you.