Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

MAAT wrote:

SeasideSoon wrote:
<quoted text>I've already given him the New KJV footnotes that explain the proper translation,(on more than 1 thread). He's on a mission, and until he learns the language he will continue trampling on someone else's scriptures and beliefs..
Yes, I read your post later.
It is amazing to see Christians referring to various verses to show the coming of Jesus as the Messiah, whereas I never see the the Jews seeing any Messiah coming in those verses.
Am I right in saying that?
--
many where annointed. Written in the past tense.
So not even Daniel predicts A JESUS CHRIST nametitle title.
Besides has to be fathered by a real man.
But culture had changed long before NT and the translation of hebrew saw the light of day in the 4th century.
(Am i right in supposing that you have been following my quest for the very first mentioning of said names?)
And so had the form the tribal religion took and various expectations.
But it is rather simple.
The list of tasks that need to be accomplished.
Only after completion people would feel safe again.
Victory after organized effort as Thanksgiving.
Symmetry and parity.
So none can be messiah just because of being declared so. Or like schwarzeneggering it's way through:'I'll be Back!'
thanks for your contributions.

rabbee: will you quit catering to their books, and just tell them what it says in TheTorah. especially about this end, of the sixth day again.

Tweaks wrote:

<quoted text>"Don't"

too much sugar in your cheerios?

Frijoles wrote:

<quoted text>
too much sugar in your cheerios?

"Cheerios"

Rick Moss wrote:

<quoted text>
Funny -- I'm almost SURE the Torah says there's only ONE G-d.

. Agreed .

Quite true, they had different understanding, and they were responsible for what they did have. Progressive revelation is just that latter meanings or clarifications built upon earlier messages.

For example, Abraham built alters wherever he wanted and sacrificed, but this was changed under Mosaic law.

Here is a link which covers this topic, which is complex.

Chapter 3: Progressive Revelation
www.askelm.com/essentials/ess005a.htm

(I just dont have space enough on these topix pages to write it all down.)

Even with Messianic teachings, these were first brought out in Genesis (18) and some other places in the Bible, in a progressive way. But David started to get the ball rolling with Messianic prophecies. Psalm 2 was just one we have already talked about.

..."The kings of the earth take their stand And the rulers take counsel together Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,"...Psalm 2:2

Here is another one from Psalm, which further introduces the Messianic, trinitarian doctrine...

..."Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: the scepter of your kingdom is a righteous scepter. You love righteousness, and hate wickedness: therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows."...Psalm 45:6-7

And then the Messianic prophecies really get rolling in, and in greater detail, such as this one from Isaiah 53

..."By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken."...Isaiah 53:8

And that matches Daniel 9:25-26...

25... "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.

26..."After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed."...Daniel 9:25-26

And the Messianic prophecies in the tanakh start coming in, so much that I will just have to post yet another link.

Messianic Prophecies
www.clarifyingchristianity.com/m_prophecies.s...

The reason there were so many of them, from different prophets, was that God didnt want us to miss out on the message. That is why these Messianic prophecies were repeated, by different prophets.

And this was necessary so that we could understand the Messiah when He did come, what He did while He was here, and what He will do upon return.

The scriptures that teach us that Jesus told Mary not to touch Him, and then later that day told Thomas and the rest of them to touch Him, is something that we can understand because of progressive revelation.

The Old Testament taught us the understanding on that seemingly puzzling scripture, BTW. It applies to Preistly ritual purification during the atonement sacrifice. We learned about that in the OT.

So, the Old Testament prepared us for the understanding and coming of the Messiah. That was why progressive revelation was needed.

Somehow, I doubt that someone was going to prep us for disaster if they didn't want the disaster to take us out. Not sure anyone on here can prove any of this, so it's all "here's what I read and understand". Hopefully the books were written by good truthful people and not false prophets looking for profits.

hillbillyboy wrote:

Now, as to the Holy Spirit part of the trinity being taught in the Jewish scriptures...lets go to Isaiah
...""Come near me and listen to this: "From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret; at the time it happens, I am there." And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, with his Spirit."...Isaiah 48:16

The Holy Spirit of Christianity does not exist as an entity besides God.

What Isaiah meant was that he had come with the blessings, knowledge and mercy from God.

The spirit of God is the force or the power of God that works behind people and everything.

Kaiyah wrote:

It is when TRUE (real) ISRAEL is back in the land will there finally be peace. According to our bible jerusalem will be trodden down by the gentiles...until the LORD comes again. When I look towards jerusalem, I don"t see Christ ruling but rather a bunch of ASHKENAZ (GEN 10.. fake european self proclaimed jew-ish) acting like the murderous DEVILS that they are.Please hurry and surry to build the THIRD temple. That is your true and only purpose as the Synagogue of SATAN.(REV 3:9) What a group of deceitful, greedy DOGS who will get all that is justly due then from the MOST HIGH at the time appointed.

'
Haplo group J2 defintely Kahanite/phenician.
just deal with it.

A bit of travel and a lighter skintone does not make people utter strangers.

And i realise i am probably talking to someone that slaps on the whitener.

rabbee yehoshooah adam wrote:

<quoted text>
rabbee: will you quit catering to their books, and just tell them what it says in TheTorah. especially about this end, of the sixth day again.

It's too darn noisy here to do that!
Can't get a word in edgewise.

BE

bmz wrote:

<quoted text>
The Holy Spirit of Christianity does not exist as an entity besides God.
What Isaiah meant was that he had come with the blessings, knowledge and mercy from God.
The spirit of God is the force or the power of God that works behind people and everything.

There is no trinity.
D-d gave his LAW on the mountain and that's all the basis needed.

MAAT wrote:

<quoted text>It's too darn noisy here to do that!
Can't get a word in edgewise.
BE

rabbee: well don't, feel lonely. trying to use, their lies to stop their lying is usless. been there, done that, from 1996 to 1999. end result, there still liars.

tegods wrote:

Somehow, I doubt that someone was going to prep us for disaster if they didn't want the disaster to take us out. Not sure anyone on here can prove any of this, so it's all "here's what I read and understand". Hopefully the books were written by good truthful people and not false prophets looking for profits.

No that is not going to happen.
People might have different ideas but all is not to be destroyed again.
So yep i'll bet someone is making money on all this religion.
I asked messianists before why they are so happy to kill 2/3 of the world population.

bmz wrote:

<quoted text>
The Holy Spirit of Christianity does not exist as an entity besides God.
What Isaiah meant was that he had come with the blessings, knowledge and mercy from God.
The spirit of God is the force or the power of God that works behind people and everything.

rabbee: your telling lies again, for i have seen HER, SHE is Beautiful and with HER HAIR, all the way down to about HER ANKLES. and is why i have a long hair fetish, with women. and i use my Manly length Hair, like my FATHERS as a measuring stick. short hair on a woman, indicates a curse. like the curse of effimacy, of being clean shaven.

MAAT wrote:

<quoted text>
No that is not going to happen.
People might have different ideas but all is not to be destroyed again.
So yep i'll bet someone is making money on all this religion.
I asked messianists before why they are so happy to kill 2/3 of the world population.

rabbee: G-D has always nearly destroyed the whole world, making all the same old mistakes by flood. and because of Noach, HisFamily, and whoever the 144,000 animals always are. G-D can always keep, HIS Promise to not destroy, the whole world.

since for thousands and thousands of third or fourth times, Noach and HisFamily and the 144,000 animals have always been there. to insure that HaShem, can always keep HIS Promises in TheTorah. this time no different, than all the other times.

end result all your grandchildren are not likely to be of the 144,000 as animals. since most of them shall be a result of, the direct linage of adam and his assigned mate. so all of your refusing to be here in TheTorah Happening today, is going to get all your grandchildren killed in the deluvian. with maybe, very, very, very, few exceptions.

i guarentee! that deluvian, shall always happen. for the whole world refusing to consider being here, in TheTorah from HaShem.

hillbillyboy wrote:

Quite true, they had different understanding, and they were responsible for what they did have. Progressive revelation is just that latter meanings or clarifications built upon earlier messages.
For example, Abraham built alters wherever he wanted and sacrificed, but this was changed under Mosaic law.
Here is a link which covers this topic, which is complex.
Chapter 3: Progressive Revelation
www.askelm.com/essentials/ess005a.htm
(I just dont have space enough on these topix pages to write it all down.)
Even with Messianic teachings, these were first brought out in Genesis (18) and some other places in the Bible, in a progressive way. But David started to get the ball rolling with Messianic prophecies. Psalm 2 was just one we have already talked about.
..."The kings of the earth take their stand And the rulers take counsel together Against the LORD and against His Anointed, saying,"...Psalm 2:2
Here is another one from Psalm, which further introduces the Messianic, trinitarian doctrine...
..."Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: the scepter of your kingdom is a righteous scepter. You love righteousness, and hate wickedness: therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellows."...Psalm 45:6-7
And then the Messianic prophecies really get rolling in, and in greater detail, such as this one from Isaiah 53
..."By oppression and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken."...Isaiah 53:8
And that matches Daniel 9:25-26...
25... "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.
26..."After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed."...Daniel 9:25-26
And the Messianic prophecies in the tanakh start coming in, so much that I will just have to post yet another link.
Messianic Prophecies
www.clarifyingchristianity.com/m_prophecies.s...
The reason there were so many of them, from different prophets, was that God didnt want us to miss out on the message. That is why these Messianic prophecies were repeated, by different prophets.
And this was necessary so that we could understand the Messiah when He did come, what He did while He was here, and what He will do upon return.
The scriptures that teach us that Jesus told Mary not to touch Him, and then later that day told Thomas and the rest of them to touch Him, is something that we can understand because of progressive revelation.
The Old Testament taught us the understanding on that seemingly puzzling scripture, BTW. It applies to Preistly ritual purification during the atonement sacrifice. We learned about that in the OT.
So, the Old Testament prepared us for the understanding and coming of the Messiah. That was why progressive revelation was needed.

I aksed you where in the tanakh an exact verse explained your ideology of progressive revelation and you countered to me with a document explaining it written by a commentator (not a verse) from a NT perspective.

Thats exactly my point. You are importing your lens.

Stick to the text, as the text reveals itself.

Frijoles wrote:

<quoted text>
It doesnt matter - there is a difference betweem seeing "God" in some form or apparition, and seeing Jesus. Nowhere does it say Jesus in that passage, nor does it give any instruction or odeology such as the instruction and ideology that you have conjured up from your religion. It is what it is.
God also appears as a burning bush - and from a cleft from a rock, and as angels - SO what? Why arent you worshipping fire or rocks or winged creatures? Why are you fixated on this one ghost figure?

hmm i like!
Flexing the thinking muscles is see.

Frijoles wrote:

<quoted text>
I aksed you where in the tanakh an exact verse explained your ideology of progressive revelation and you countered to me with a document explaining it written by a commentator (not a verse) from a NT perspective.
Thats exactly my point. You are importing your lens.
Stick to the text, as the text reveals itself.

Progressive revelation is self evident. Otherwise, one would have to conclude that Lot knew as much about God, as did Isaiah, for example.

The Law of Moses had not even been given in Lots time. How can you say Lot understood as much about God as Isaiah did?

But I see that you are refusing to even think about this. I suppose you are caught up in a stubborn and superstition based ideology. That is a shame, as you will miss the whole point of Judaism by being like that.

God does not want us to have a static relationship with Him. He wants to take us ever closer to Him in our relationship.

That is what God is doing in the scriptures. Or at least He was trying to do that with progressive revelation. Except Israel was always going astray, whoring after idols and false gods and false doctrines.

And now, modern Judaism seems to be whoring after Buddism, with some doctrine that looks an awful lot like reincarnation.

Meanwhile Israel is rejecting the obvious teachings of the scriptures, such as the trinity...and rejecting its Messiah.

So you reject the divine Messiah (which is all through the tanakh) and accept reincarnation into your religion (which is no where in the tanakh).

Interesting.

Well, we all do have to face God and give an account. I can say I went to you and tried to warn you and teach you.

What will you tell God? What excuse will you give for ignoring the teachings of the tanakh and following the false teachings and superstitions of men?

If we apply your modern day rabbinical teachings of the rabbis, then Israel is waiting for a Messiah that is not divine.

In other words, Israel is waiting for Buddha.

(Buddha wasnt divine either.)

But the true Messiah has already come. Israel rejected Him, but the Gentiles didnt.

God blessed the Gentiles who accepted the Jewish Messiah. And now that religion has gone world wide and spanned over every race and tongue. God blessed that true branch of Judaism (Christianity).

While Judaism withers and waits for a buddha like false messiah.

The next one will be the anti-Christ (who will declare himself divine, you see).

The true Messiah will not come back to Earth until its time for the anti-Christ (and everyone who rejected Jesus during this time of Grace) to be dealt with.

This will be 7 years after the Christians are taken off the Earth and the tribulations begin. But, there will be 144,000 Jews (12,000 from each tribe) who will refuse to take the mark of the beast (666), and be martyred for it. They will be saved.

All of these things can be found in the last book of the Christian Bible (Revelation). Also Daniel and Isaiah.

I just have the feeling that some Jewish person out there is reading this thread and getting something very useful from it. That is good. Maybe not everyone in Judaism is blinded with susperstitions and closed mindedness.

hillbillyboy wrote:

The true Messiah will not come back to Earth until its time for the anti-Christ (and everyone who rejected Jesus during this time of Grace) to be dealt with.
This will be 7 years after the Christians are taken off the Earth and the tribulations begin. But, there will be 144,000 Jews (12,000 from each tribe) who will refuse to take the mark of the beast (666), and be martyred for it. They will be saved.
All of these things can be found in the last book of the Christian Bible (Revelation). Also Daniel and Isaiah.
I just have the feeling that some Jewish person out there is reading this thread and getting something very useful from it. That is good. Maybe not everyone in Judaism is blinded with susperstitions and closed mindedness.

And you believe in that superstition, wild dream and myth coming from a sad and dejected man, John?

bmz wrote:

<quoted text>
And you believe in that superstition, wild dream and myth coming from a sad and dejected man, John?

The superstition being in clinging to parts of the scriptures while dismissing other parts. Dismissing the progressive revelation of scriptures in order to make the faith a static one, is an artificial barrier. That part is superstition.

The relationship that God wants is one of increasing closeness to those who love Him. That increasing closeness was one where God revealed more and more of Himself to the believers.

That is progressive revelation.

Along with the progressive revelation, God also revealed the evangelical duties of the believers, which Israel definitely didnt do.

..."He says, "You will do more than restore the people of Israel to me. I will make you a light to the Gentiles, and you will bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."...Isaiah 49:6

So, the case is that superstition (teachings of man) has stifled what God wanted to do with Israel all along. After all, how can Israel take the Messianic message to the world if it dont believe the Messiah is divine (superstition of man), or rejects the Messiah altogether?

The scriptures do teach opposite to what the modern day rabbis seem to be teaching about a Messiah not being divine.

The tanakh definitely provides a picture of a divine Messiah (YHWH in the flesh) without question. There is no demi-god, or "really good fellow" presented. The tanakh is quite clear about the Savior being divine. If there is ever any doubt as to the Messianic prophecies in Psalm being merely about David, or about Israel, then this Psalm takes away any doubt...

..."Your throne, O God, is forever and ever: the scepter of your kingdom is a righteous scepter."...Psalm 45:6

If there is any further doubt as to Psalm 46 being Messianic, there is verse 10...

..."Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth."...Psalm 46:10

So, ignoring the many Messianic prophecies in the tanakh, and listening to the imaginations of men (superstitions) that teach a non-divine Messiah, is wrong.