Messianic Jews say they are persecuted in Israel

Frijoles wrote:

<quoted text>
Which category do you prefer to include yourself in today - atheist, Jew, lunatic, otherwise misfit, or fundamentalist Muslim in training?

rabbee: no matter how it may appear to any of you. none of the above.

i am just doing as G-D, has commanded of me here in TheTorah Happening again. just like Moshe, did again also. i do not believe in, the vanity of religions not here in TheTorah groupings.

i am just simply for now, TheHisAngel Son as The His Prince adam doing as dictated by G-D here in TheTorah.

and it is my assignment soon to beguin the resurrection of this word, in preperation for the next Torot time loop. from day one in Parashas Noach with Noach, to Avraham, to Daveed, and back to Us as TheSurrogate Son/Daughter of G-D again in OneBody of flesh.

and or over 20 billion years, i have never seen G-D give any other story, but TheTorah happening here. in spite of what you all say, otherwise as nobodies here in TheTorah agains'es,

hillbillyboy wrote:

If todays Messianic Jews are persecuted, then it is not the first time believers have suffered for The Lords sake. Christians have always been hated by the world, as the world hates God.
A Lamp In The Dark:untold history of Bible ~ Full Film - YouTube
&#9658; 178:25&#9658; 178:25
www.youtube.com/watch...
So, we have suffered much. It is worth it, though.

LOL. Really LOL. Your post, not the link which I didn't bother with. Absolutely priceless, coming from a spokesman for the Olympic champion religion in the category of repression and persecution. One more LOL.

seasidesoon wrote:

<quoted text>LOL. Really LOL. Your post, not the link which I didn't bother with. Absolutely priceless, coming from a spokesman for the Olympic champion religion in the category of repression and persecution. One more LOL.

Playing the victim.

liar, liar pants on fire.

hillbillyboy wrote:

<quoted text>
I didnt know about the blanket law prohibiting Christian missionaries.

Its a law against proselytizing. Anyone is free to practice their religion to themselves. It is rarely (actually never) enforced.

Frankly, I wish we would have one like that in my community. I find the behavior highly annoying in case you havent noticed.

Frijoles wrote:

<quoted text>
The Messies are not specifically persecuted in Israel. There is a blanket law against nonJewish missionary activities - regardless of whether you are Messie or mainstream Christian or whatever - which by ALL accounts is rarely enforced.
This thread was the result of a deplorable incident from a mentally deranged American who emigrated to Israel after fleeing a similar hostile lifestyle in Florida. I would not call it organized persecution by any means.(He was judged mentally ill and it was the action of an individual) It was a hate crime - no question about that.
I dont think any hate crime, or even an organized persecution, is worth playing the victim role for. So I dont think it is worth it "to suffer". Victimization never leads to anywhere good.

rabbee: so what??? jews are still getting themselves persectuted, for not being true to HaShem G-D here in TheTorah too. what gives any person, not being true to G-D, the right to persecute someone elses not being true to G-D? it's just plain vain arrogant hypocricy, to judge someone else with your treason against G-D.

i am your grandfather adam, and even though i have repented. i don't run around torturning people, cause they don't believe in G-D as they should.

if i were to kick everybody, who is not true to G-D out of Ysrael today. there would be absolutly, nobody there today. every last one of you, nobodies here in TheTorah would not be allowed in Ysrael now.

and i can't do G-D'S Job, unill the last day when G-D actually puts the both of Us in charge again. i have about another sixty years yet, so don't try to rush me, stop me or slow me down. you'll just make HaShem G-D, angry at you for doing this. and angry at me too, if i am stupid enough to let you get away with IT. i am not going for another, supersore behind like in the second visit with G-D. there is nothing on earth, that hurts worse, than a sore behind from G-D.

Actually - to be even more accurate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proselytization_...
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Israel has more than one hundred Messianic congregations, per Yaakov Shalom Ariel, associate professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina, and author of Evangelizing The Chosen People.[4]

Proselytizing is legal in the country and missionaries of all religious groups are allowed to proselytize all citizens; however, a 1977 law prohibits any person from offering material benefits as an inducement to conversion. It was also illegal to convert persons under 18 years of age unless one parent were an adherent of the religious group seeking to convert the minor. Despite the legality of proselytism, the government has taken a number of steps that encouraged the perception that proselytizing is against government policy.

For example, the MOI has detained individuals suspected of being “missionaries,” and required of such persons bail and a pledge to abstain from missionary activity, in addition to refusing them entry into the country. It maintained denunciations of such activity from antimissionary groups like Yad L'Achim in its border control databases.

The MOI has also cited proselytism as a reason to deny student, work, and religious visa extensions, as well as to deny permanent residency petitions. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) promised the Knesset in 1986 to refrain from all proselytism voluntarily in conjunction with receiving a building permit for its Jerusalem Center following protests from the Orthodox community.

— A 2010 US State Department report on religious freedom in Israel[8]

Frijoles wrote:

Actually - to be even more accurate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proselytization_...
----------
Israel has more than one hundred Messianic congregations, per Yaakov Shalom Ariel, associate professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina, and author of Evangelizing The Chosen People.[4]
Proselytizing is legal in the country and missionaries of all religious groups are allowed to proselytize all citizens; however, a 1977 law prohibits any person from offering material benefits as an inducement to conversion. It was also illegal to convert persons under 18 years of age unless one parent were an adherent of the religious group seeking to convert the minor. Despite the legality of proselytism, the government has taken a number of steps that encouraged the perception that proselytizing is against government policy.
For example, the MOI has detained individuals suspected of being “missionaries,” and required of such persons bail and a pledge to abstain from missionary activity, in addition to refusing them entry into the country. It maintained denunciations of such activity from antimissionary groups like Yad L'Achim in its border control databases.
The MOI has also cited proselytism as a reason to deny student, work, and religious visa extensions, as well as to deny permanent residency petitions. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) promised the Knesset in 1986 to refrain from all proselytism voluntarily in conjunction with receiving a building permit for its Jerusalem Center following protests from the Orthodox community.
— A 2010 US State Department report on religious freedom in Israel[8]

Inducements...someone should prosecute the Joseph Project. They bypass the govt to get into people's homes for face time, aka preaching.

Frijoles wrote:

<quoted text>
The Messies are not specifically persecuted in Israel. There is a blanket law against nonJewish missionary activities - regardless of whether you are Messie or mainstream Christian or whatever - which by ALL accounts is rarely enforced.
This thread was the result of a deplorable incident from a mentally deranged American who emigrated to Israel after fleeing a similar hostile lifestyle in Florida. I would not call it organized persecution by any means.(He was judged mentally ill and it was the action of an individual) It was a hate crime - no question about that.
I dont think any hate crime, or even an organized persecution, is worth playing the victim role for. So I dont think it is worth it "to suffer". Victimization never leads to anywhere good.

Frijles---There is a blanket law against nonJewish missionary activities

HughBe--- Am I correct to say that Jewish Christians missionaries are not affected by this law given that they are JEWISH.

Also, is there a law against the missionary activities of Judaism or Judaizers?

HughBe wrote:

<quoted text>
Frijles---There is a blanket law against nonJewish missionary activities
HughBe--- Am I correct to say that Jewish Christians missionaries are not affected by this law given that they are JEWISH.
Also, is there a law against the missionary activities of Judaism or Judaizers?

Read the post, moron. There IS no law against proselytizers per se, only those who offer money. And it wouldnt suprise me if it cuts across any religion - I dont have the text of the law in fron of me.

I have no idea what a Judaizer is nor do I really want to know.

You would last about twenty seconds in Israel. They dont tolerate religious fluff very much. On the other hand, Tel Aviv has a huge and open gay community, so maybe you would enjoy the country.

seasidesoon wrote:

<quoted text>Inducements...someone should prosecute the Joseph Project. They bypass the govt to get into people's homes for face time, aka preaching.

Thats the least of it. Its quite common for evangelicals to distribute literature thru the mail there. Though from what I understand, that isnt against the law. But it obviously in poor taste, considering the history.

There has always been the debate on whether courting the born agains is worth it for the good of the country. I understand the importance of allies, but I have always been uncomfortable with the social conservatism that comes with the support. Paul Ryan and Rick Santorum is a case in point. And it is obvious that Mit "I dont want no stinkin' kibbutz socialism here in America" Romney would through the country under the bus in a minute and simultaneously be unaware of his behaviour.

Frijoles wrote:

<quoted text>
Thats the least of it. Its quite common for evangelicals to distribute literature thru the mail there. Though from what I understand, that isnt against the law. But it obviously in poor taste, considering the history.
There has always been the debate on whether courting the born agains is worth it for the good of the country. I understand the importance of allies, but I have always been uncomfortable with the social conservatism that comes with the support. Paul Ryan and Rick Santorum is a case in point. And it is obvious that Mit "I dont want no stinkin' kibbutz socialism here in America" Romney would through the country under the bus in a minute and simultaneously be unaware of his behaviour.

It's a strange situation. The ones that won't evangelize you don't give a flip about what happens to Israel, and the ones that do evangelize only want Israel for themselves. There are exceptions of course, even in my neighborhood and my family. The only lesson i can make of it, overall, is that Israel has no real allies. Nothing new there.

Guess we'll be cancelling each other's vote in November :)

gees i get the second half, of the night watch for 243 and 1/2 years to beguin with. that is like, forever pitch black. before 487 years of daylight.

and i am sure, this world as usual. will want to make me and my annointed mate being in charge, as not-pleasurable as it was for G-D. this planet should be called, nightmare instead of earth.

and i hate this waiting, to the last second. to find out if all of you, are going to be replaced with another annointed mate for adam. so that oh joy, i get a whole new batch of total idiots, for the next Torot Time after this. it's like the not here, in TheTorah stupidity never ends. in what else is never knew.

the only thing new, shocking and astonishing, is if one of these Torot times they actually did all make it to GanEden. and were actually intelligent and logical, for a change with G-D in TheTorah. but that is so, highly unlikely i would not hold my breath for tat to ever happen.

Frijoles wrote:

<quoted text>
Read the post, moron. There IS no law against proselytizers per se, only those who offer money. And it wouldnt suprise me if it cuts across any religion - I dont have the text of the law in fron of me.
I have no idea what a Judaizer is nor do I really want to know.
You would last about twenty seconds in Israel. They dont tolerate religious fluff very much. On the other hand, Tel Aviv has a huge and open gay community, so maybe you would enjoy the country.

Frijoles---Read the post, moron.

HughBe-- Indeed, I have forgotten about your intellectual deficiencies and so thank you for reminding me of your IDIOCY.

Frijols--- There IS no law against proselytizers per se, only those who offer money.

HughBe--- Please indicate by quoting to me the section of the post below that I read and responded to that dealt with money.

The POST--"The Messies are not specifically persecuted in Israel. There is a blanket law against nonJewish missionary activities - regardless of whether you are Messie or mainstream Christian or whatever - which by ALL accounts is rarely enforced.
This thread was the result of a deplorable incident from a mentally deranged American who emigrated to Israel after fleeing a similar hostile lifestyle in Florida. I would not call it organized persecution by any means.(He was judged mentally ill and it was the action of an individual) It was a hate crime - no question about that.
I dont think any hate crime, or even an organized persecution, is worth playing the victim role for. So I dont think it is worth it "to suffer". Victimization never leads to anywhere good."

Frijoles---I have no idea what a Judaizer is nor do I really want to know.

HughBe--- Thanks for confirming that you don't know yourself.

Frijoles---You would last about twenty seconds in Israel.

HughBe---You have no idea who a Jamaican is.

Frijoles--- They dont tolerate religious fluff very much.

HughBe--- In other words they don't tolerate RELIGIOUS FREEDOM or have it there. I accept your words.

Frijoles-- On the other hand, Tel Aviv has a huge and open gay community, so maybe you would enjoy the country.

HughBe--- You never miss the opportunity to speak about your favourite subject even if it is not being discussed as in this case. That aside, I would enjoy the company of genuine and descent people be they homosexual or even Judaizers.

Now, please respond to my post below. Thank you, dear.

Frijles---There is a blanket law against nonJewish missionary activities

HughBe--- Am I correct to say that Jewish Christians missionaries are not affected by this law given that they are JEWISH.

Also, is there a law against the missionary activities of Judaism or Judaizers?

Frijoles wrote:

The proof is in the pudding. You create a deity out of argument of ignorance to explain the physical world. While the educated ones among us use science as a tool to present operational and verifiable details to explain the physical world.

Your logic is not logic. It is magic. And when confronted with a dead end, you resort to "Allah knows best".

2.

We have presented explanations and citations detailing the illogic in your approach. If you want to claim we dont talk straight, that is your choice, but it only makes you look more foolish.

When you resort to argument from ignorance (which we defined several times) you are not being practical. You are being the opposite of practical. Science is practical, illogical speculation is not. Science is verifiable. Illogical speculation is not.

What I dont get is that there are many religious people (i.e. people of faith) who understand these boundaries, and base their religious practice on faith (rather than this illogical attempt to rationalize as you are doing).

What is wrong with basing your beliefs on faith? You already admitted to doing so, but then reverted back to your original illogical approach. In other words - "God is - I take it on faith -there is no reason or rationale for this, it just is". What is so hard about saying this?

Ans.

This is the old technique of you people, that you present your side of argument with glowing tributes and start making loose comments and ridicules for one not supporting your own views.

The same trick you are playing with me.

It is a standard technique in science to first make a “Hypothesis” and then look out if it explains the available facts.

So if you start with the hypothesis that a Creator exists for the universe we see around us,(which is very logical and reasonable) and then look if it explains every thing we see around us or is there any contradiction.

I do not find any logical fallacy in my argument,“Every Created thing must have a Creator” is very reasonable and logical first step.

And I never put forward any religious beliefs so far, I am only speaking from logical and reasonable point of view.

I do not find you contradicting this hypothesis or proving that things can create themselves.


When Darwin proposed his “theory of evolution”, did he had full knowledge of what it really meant? What meager data he had to put forward that theory?

Science tries to “Explain” How things are working in this Universe. It is not its scope to prove or disprove Creator.

You are using a very improper tool for such a discussion.

seasidesoon wrote:

<quoted text>LOL. Really LOL. Your post, not the link which I didn't bother with. Absolutely priceless, coming from a spokesman for the Olympic champion religion in the category of repression and persecution. One more LOL.

If you had watched the video you might have not posted as you did. Its not what you think. Your only partially right (but still partially wrong).

I leave it up to you to decide.

SeasideSoon wrote:

<quoted text>It's a strange situation. The ones that won't evangelize you don't give a flip about what happens to Israel, and the ones that do evangelize only want Israel for themselves. There are exceptions of course, even in my neighborhood and my family. The only lesson i can make of it, overall, is that Israel has no real allies. Nothing new there.
Guess we'll be cancelling each other's vote in November :)

Im from the remote regions of the Appalachian mountains of Tennessee. We are probably among the most conservative protestant Christians in the country. We are fundamentalist, which simply means that we believe the Bible is true, and should be interpreted as it reads, within context of course.

Anyway, back in the 1950s, there was a Messianic Jew come to speak at our small Baptist Church up in the mountains. Well sir, he was treated like a rock star!

He even stayed with my family, and was fetted like a king. Word spread fast in the mountains. People came down from the hollers and mountains in droves to greet the man and shake his hand. They could not believe their good fortune in being able to meet a real jew! Everyone was doing their utmost to make him feel welcome and appreciated. The poor fellow was a little bit overwhelmed with all of the positive attention. It was like a huge party or something!

(Yes, this is really a true story)

That is because the fundamentalist Christians there believe that Gods promise to Abraham is still valid. Remember the..."I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse those who curse you"?

(Fundamentalist Christians remember this stuff, BTW, and believe it to be the actual word of God. I do)

Anyway, I think that Israeli people may not really understand what group of Americans it is that is actually for them.

It is the fundamentalist Christians in the Bible belt. That is probably Israels best friends in the world.

And also the most fervent Christians (who are the most hyper evangelic) and maybe the most annoying to Israelis.

So, it is a really strange situation, this Judeo-Christian Torah/Old Testament mixture of two religions using the same Holy Book.

Anything this mixed up cannot be an accident, can it?

hillbillyboy wrote:

<quoted text>
If you had watched the video you might have not posted as you did. Its not what you think. Your only partially right (but still partially wrong).
I leave it up to you to decide.

I've read the history of the church, RCC and protestant. I stand by my remark.

SeasideSoon wrote:

<quoted text>I've read the history of the church, RCC and protestant. I stand by my remark.

If everyone who claims to be a Christian actually followed the teachings of Jesus, history would have been different. Not so much wanton violence, such as the Crusades,the Inquisitions, burning people that only wanted to have the Bible printed in their own language, and so on.

These were evil men doing evil in Gods name.

It was,however, organized religious leaders who had Jesus crucified. And one of his own disciples betrayed Him as well.

But, the story doesnt end there.

Despite the many abuses, the true teachings of Jesus have inspired billions of people for 2000 years, and they did live by His teachings.

Imagine the violence that was prevented? How to enumerate it? God only knows?

hillbillyboy wrote:

<quoted text>
Im from the remote regions of the Appalachian mountains of Tennessee. We are probably among the most conservative protestant Christians in the country. We are fundamentalist, which simply means that we believe the Bible is true, and should be interpreted as it reads, within context of course.
Anyway, back in the 1950s, there was a Messianic Jew come to speak at our small Baptist Church up in the mountains. Well sir, he was treated like a rock star!
He even stayed with my family, and was fetted like a king. Word spread fast in the mountains. People came down from the hollers and mountains in droves to greet the man and shake his hand. They could not believe their good fortune in being able to meet a real jew! Everyone was doing their utmost to make him feel welcome and appreciated. The poor fellow was a little bit overwhelmed with all of the positive attention. It was like a huge party or something!
(Yes, this is really a true story)
That is because the fundamentalist Christians there believe that Gods promise to Abraham is still valid. Remember the..."I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse those who curse you"?
(Fundamentalist Christians remember this stuff, BTW, and believe it to be the actual word of God. I do)
Anyway, I think that Israeli people may not really understand what group of Americans it is that is actually for them.
It is the fundamentalist Christians in the Bible belt. That is probably Israels best friends in the world.
And also the most fervent Christians (who are the most hyper evangelic) and maybe the most annoying to Israelis.
So, it is a really strange situation, this Judeo-Christian Torah/Old Testament mixture of two religions using the same Holy Book.
Anything this mixed up cannot be an accident, can it?

I've been the messianic route, and i studied a lot more than the average attendee about Moshe Rosen and the beginnings of the messianic christian movement.(southern baptist Convention, fuller theological seminary). http://www.outreachjudaism.org/articles/evang...

then about five years ago i started seriously studying hebrew and started asking questions about the discrepancies between the original language and what's been handed down to us. no satisfactory answers..my favorite "you've just got to have more faith". imo faith is worthless without knowledge, and knowledge isn't to be found in most churches.

last year i went to israel and met with an orthodox rabbi, and another person, a christian (who doesn't evangelize to jews). The situation is not good. the messianics are out in force looking for ripe pickins', and despite the current lack of evangelical fervor of the rcc after wwii, the church is, politically speaking, squarely against the Jewish presence in what the church perceives as their own personal holy land. they see the israeli arabs as more pliable inhabitants. they forget that during the jordan occupation, jordan didn't protect their holy sites, but Israel has done so since 1967.

do i think these two religions are an accident. no, there are no accidents. despite the horrific history of the church towards the jewish people, they've survived for 2000 years because they were meant to be separate and keep torah from being polluted by roman and greek influences and interpretations. the ones who convert willingly are uneducated in their own scriptures. the ones who will never convert know their scriptures far better than you or i.

how far down the rabbit hole are you willing to go alice?

hillbillyboy wrote:

<quoted text>
If everyone who claims to be a Christian actually followed the teachings of Jesus, history would have been different. Not so much wanton violence, such as the Crusades,the Inquisitions, burning people that only wanted to have the Bible printed in their own language, and so on.
These were evil men doing evil in Gods name.
It was,however, organized religious leaders who had Jesus crucified. And one of his own disciples betrayed Him as well.
But, the story doesnt end there.
Despite the many abuses, the true teachings of Jesus have inspired billions of people for 2000 years, and they did live by His teachings.
Imagine the violence that was prevented? How to enumerate it? God only knows?

you're rationalizing the behavior. there have always been truly good people in any religion, usually in the minority.

and you're using the nt verison of events to blame the jews again. your very texts, if read and understood from the context of the times, would disprove the characterization of the jews as christkillers. first of all, the religious sanhedrin would never hold a capital trial at night, much less on the eve of a holiday.
second, a death penalty handed down by the religious sanhedrin was so rare as to be almost non-existent. next, figure out the difference between the political sanhedrin and who was in charge and their agenda, and the religious sanhedrin. did jesus say anywhere specifically that he was god? if not, the religious sanhedrin wouldn't even care about him. his, or his followers, claim that he was the messiah was certainly not a capital offense. messiahs were more prevalent than chickens in a henhouse, especially during the greek and roman occupations. learn more about pilate and how he's been whitewashed in our traditions. there's way more going on beyond the skimpy details offered in the nt.