Getting prickly when it's about Israel

Hussein wrote:

...I just said that Palestine was part of a larger, supranational political entity...

And has been since Roman Times -- For several centuries, the area known as Palestine was ruled exclusively by Turks (not Arabs) and "Palestinians" were Jewish, Muslim, Xtian, Druze, etc.

The idea that Palestinian Arabs have ever been an independent state is a fallacy (created in 1967).

The self-proclaimed Palestinian Arabs have two choices before them. Make peace with Israel and create a viable state in the lands they currently occupy. Or, keep trying to destroy Israel and endure the same kind of pain and suffering they have been inflicting on themselves for decades.

The last time Jews were expelled from Israel -- it took the largest military force in the known world 20 years of all-out war. Do you seriously think a few rockets are going to make them pack up and leave?

Casual Observer wrote:

<quoted text>
You best get down to he public health center and get your flu shot, Burt.
Living in close proximity, like you do in the trailer, makes your chance of infection greater.

Go sit on a banana

Rick Moss wrote:

<quoted text>
And has been since Roman Times -- For several centuries, the area known as Palestine was ruled exclusively by Turks (not Arabs) and "Palestinians" were Jewish, Muslim, Xtian, Druze, etc.
The idea that Palestinian Arabs have ever been an independent state is a fallacy (created in 1967).

Of course, there wasn never a jewish state in all of history until the US created it in 1948.

Soon we will do the same for the Palestinians. The big difference is that while the vast majority of the world was vehemently opposed to the creatin of a jewish state (for reasons which have since become obvious), the world overwhelmingly support the creation of a Palestinian State.

The more Israel resists, the more it will isolate itself. They've already tested the patience of the entire world. For a Country that is completely dependent upon the outside world for daily survival this is a pretty foolish thing to do.

Casual Observer wrote:

<quoted text>
Of course, there wasn never a jewish state in all of history until the US created it in 1948.
Soon we will do the same for the Palestinians. The big difference is that while the vast majority of the world was vehemently opposed to the creatin of a jewish state (for reasons which have since become obvious), the world overwhelmingly support the creation of a Palestinian State.
The more Israel resists, the more it will isolate itself. They've already tested the patience of the entire world. For a Country that is completely dependent upon the outside world for daily survival this is a pretty foolish thing to do.

Sorry Cassual, you don't speak for the world. The world does not need or want another a-rab state. They already have a couple dozen and haven't given the world a single contribution in well over a thousand years.

Burt wrote:

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Sorry Cassual, you don't speak for the world. The world does not need or want another a-rab state. They already have a couple dozen and haven't given the world a single contribution in well over a thousand years.

Actually, Burt, I agree with you here. I definitely don't want another Arab state in the region, since the ones that are currently there are run by puppets.

What I do want is a one-state solution, like the one that existed prior to the Ottoman presence in the Holy Land, in which Jew, Christian and Muslim lived peacefully side by side. The problem? God's chosen people are a greedy bunch.

Think that's racist? Why don't you check the map of "Israel" on the 10 Agorot coin (the Israeli equivalent of a dime). The map includes Syria, Lebanon, and parts of Egypt, Jordan, Saudi and Iraq- i.e.: greater Israel. The only reason you colonialist vermin haven't occupied the rest of the Middle East is circumstance, and circumstance alone.

Moreover, the estimated US and European contributions to the "chosen state" are well over 4 Trillion dollars (3 Trillion from the US alone, according to Thomas Stauffer, published in The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs).

All invested in a state the size of New Jersey. Wow, what a resourceful people! Heck, with that money you could have rebuilt Persepolis and still had cash to spare.

Oh, and "Casual Observer":

Kudos for the trailer jab, that made my day.

Hussein wrote:

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...like the one that existed PRIOR to the Ottoman presence in the Holy Land...

You want to go back to Mamluk Sultanate rule? The Mamluk Sultanate no longer exists -- hasn't for almost 500 years.

Would you also be in favour of Pakistan and Bangladesh being absorbed into greater India (the situation that existed until 1947? A time when Indian Muslims, Hindus and Xtians all lived in peace and harmony?

Perhaps England should become part of France -- as it was in the past? Or the USA return to Britain?

Should Europe and Africa return to Roman Rule? I wonder if China, Mongolia, and SE Asia are keen to be back under Japanese Rule?

Let's pick a point in time and revert everyone back to the way they were -- that's the only fair thing to do.

Hussein wrote:

Palestine was part of a larger, supranational political entity. That doesn't mean that it wasn't a distinct state.

Certainly it does. And not only was it not a distinct state, it was part of the Damascus province (and to this day the Syrians would love to get their hands on it.)

Hussein wrote:

My late grandfather was born in 1914, and his Ottoman ID clearly states he is "Palestinian".

Yeah and my mother was born in 1946 and her birth certificate says Palestine. Does that make me a Palestinian too? According to UNRWA Palestinians are those who happened to be in the Mandate from 1946-8. This includes lots of Arabs who ILLEGALLY immigrated to the Mandate for work. Probably about 100,000 "Palestinians" including people such as Yasser Arafat's family.(Of course he was born in Egypt.)

Hussein wrote:

No country whatsoever has a "right to exist as a state of a certain religion".

Really? So are you telling us that Hamas does not seek to create a Muslim state? Will you not recognize an independent Palestine under Hamas leadership? Will you oppose it? Benny Morris tackled this canard well in the following article: http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/full...

Hussein wrote:

The latter would mean that it can use whatever means necessary- including deportation and ethnic cleansing- to preserve that "right".

If you want to talk about deportation and ethnic cleansing, talk to the Jordanians, they are the ones currently revoking citizenship for Palestinians. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.a...

Hussein wrote:

"Well, first: Happy Tisha B'Av. Second, your ancestors had every chance to go back from the 1200's till 1910 and still didn't do so.

That's nonsense, they made every effort to do so. Perhaps you have not heard of David Alroy (ca 1160), Sabbtai Zevi's (1626-1676), the Vilna Gaon's (1720-1797) students, Judah ben Solomon (1798-1878), Moses Montefiore (1784-1885) and many, many others, but they certainly ACTIVELY encouraged Jewish migration to Israel and many did (often by walking).

[QUOTE who="Hussein"]Actual ly, if Matan Vilnai can threaten a Shoah against the Gazan people, I definitely think that the Nakba of 1948 can be considered one as well.

I see, so based on your logic, if someone suggests that a "catastrophe" (which is exactly what shoah, as opposed to HaShoah means) will befall the Palestinians if they keep indiscriminately firing rockets on the civilian population that a holocaust/genocide HAS happened in the past? Sounds a little loopy to me. Then again, every single day Palestinians preach hatred and murder, so I guess it must make sense to you.

Hussein wrote:

I think it's sad that people like you resort to baseless religious-bashing to move the light away from Israel. Not once have I criticized the Jewish religion (although the Talmud does give me plenty of cannon fodder).

First off, it is not baseless. Muslims are religiously sanctioned to lie, especially when it comes to war. Secondly, if you have something to say about the Talmud, bring it on. I am sure there will be more than a little that can be said about the Koran and the Hadiths. Third, I am sorry if I do not play the role of the good Dhimmi very well, but I do not intend to pipe down just because you say so.

"Palestinians see it as a natural response to them being shoved out by hundreds of thousands of unwanted illegal immigrants.

The Palestinians shoved themselves out. Even Abbas recently admitted this. See: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite... Also: http://www.hudsonny.org/2009/07/arab-responsi...

Turns out you guys are the ones who chose to emigrate.

Can't help but think that in these camps you hear a similar: "not one, not two, not three..."

UNRWA Official Homepage

http://www.un.org/unrwa/english.html

Hussein wrote:

What I do want is a one-state solution,

Who can blame you? The one state solution = three state for the Palestinians and zero for the Jews. Why three? Jordan is majority Palestinians (until they revoke their citizenships) and Hamas and Fatah will never reconcile.

Hussein says: "like the one that existed prior to the Ottoman presence in the Holy Land, in which Jew, Christian and Muslim lived peacefully side by side.."

... under the thumb of Muslims as dhimmis.

Hussein says: "The problem? God's chosen people are a greedy bunch."

Well, if you are going in for the racist approach (and yes, this is racist)... perhaps the problem is that Muslims are bloodthirsty rejectionists?

Hussein says: "Why don't you check the map of "Israel" on the 10 Agorot coin (the Israeli equivalent of a dime)."

Yeah and the US flag has stars on it. It does not mean that the US claims the cosmos. Besides, seriously? The 10 agura coin? Seems like pretty small change to me. You can check the picture of it here and decide for yourself. You would have to be Rorschach to see a map there.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_agora )

Hussein says: "The only reason you colonialist vermin haven't occupied the rest of the Middle East is circumstance, and circumstance alone."

Yes, we are also the only people to have repeatedly made the mistake of giving up land for "peace".

Hussein says: "Moreover, the estimated US and European contributions to the "chosen state" are well over 4 Trillion dollars (3 Trillion from the US alone, according to Thomas Stauffer"

Yeah, Stauffer's estimate was based on a very scientific (!) "estimate of the total cost to the U.S. alone of instability and conflict in the region - which emanates from the core Israeli-Palestinian conflict." No doubt, the conflict in Darfur is Israel's fault, as is the civil war in Lebanon and the problems in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and anywhere else in the Muslim world.

Please keep up the grievance narrative rather than taking responsibility for your own mess.

Hussein wrote:

<quoted text>
"Israel" on the 10 Agorot coin (the Israeli equivalent of a dime). The map includes Syria, Lebanon, and parts of Egypt, Jordan, Saudi and Iraq- i.e.: greater Israel.

what map? its the borderlines of remains of an ancient coin.
http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%98%D7%...

ALEX wrote:

<quoted text>
what map? its the borderlines of remains of an ancient coin.
http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%98%D7%...

Muslim media works 24/7 creating conspiracies and libels against Jews

"The Palestinians shoved themselves out."

Well, your first Prime Minister, David Ben Gurion, begs to differ:

"Why should the Arabs make peace? If I were an Arab leader, I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it's true, but two thousand years ago, and what is that to them? There has been antisemitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country."

"Yeah and the US flag has stars on it. It does not mean that the US claims the cosmos.[...] You would have to be Rorschach to see a map there.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_agora )"

Actually, sweet cheeks, check the coin on the bottom right. Look at the lines to the west (i.e. left) of the coin, and get a map of the middle east. You know what? Here you go: http://www.tomhull.com/ocston/projects/ajvp/p... .

"Yeah and my mother was born in 1946 and her birth certificate says Palestine. Does that make me a Palestinian too?"

Nope, but you [intentionally?] miss the point: if an ID card issued in 1914 says that someone is Palestinian, you cannot POSSIBLY claim that the term was "invented" post-1948.

"Really? So are you telling us that Hamas does not seek to create a Muslim state? Will you not recognize an independent Palestine under Hamas leadership?"

Palestine under Hamas leadership and a Palestine that has to remain Muslim and demands a right to exist solely as a Muslim state are two completely different things. I want a Palestine in which me, my forefathers, and compatriots can all live peacefully. I don't care if my Prime Minister is Jewish, Druze, Christian or Muslim.

"If you want to talk about deportation and ethnic cleansing, talk to the Jordanians". The atrocities committed at the hands of the Jordanians do not absolve Israel of the ones it committed. Quit the "hey! they're doing it too!" routine.

"many, many others, but they certainly ACTIVELY encouraged Jewish migration to Israel and many did (often by walking)"

Wow, so after all that 'encouragement', all they could muster was less than HALF A PERCENT of the global Jewish population? Wow... I thought Jewish people were more persuasive than that.

As for your Shoah argument, it makes no sense; I called our Nakba a Shoah and you became irate. Now, you're saying that Shoah doesn't mean Holocaust, only "tragedy" (which is the context in which I used it). Quit the backtracking and commit to a position, please.

Moed Kattan 17a . If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.

Baba Mezia 114a-114b. Only Jews are human

Sanhedrin 58b. If a heathen (Gentile) hits a Jew, the Gentile must be killed. Hitting a Jew is the same as hitting God.

I could go on forever. Let's not go into this, because I will shred you to pieces.

Pumbaa wrote:

Can't help but think that in these camps you hear a similar: "not one, not two, not three..."

Yeah, but in the case of Gaza this is in response to the question: "How many wives do you have?"

PhukIsrael wrote:

Israel is defying the United Nations.
I seem to recall that defying the UN was one of the justifications given for bombing Iraq.
Bomb Israel!!
Israel is defying the United States.
Israel is defying the United Nations.
Why are we still being forced to pay for it all?

I put your exact comments before you did but topix censored me.

Rick Moss wrote:

<quoted text>
And has been since Roman Times -- For several centuries, the area known as Palestine was ruled exclusively by Turks (not Arabs) and "Palestinians" were Jewish, Muslim, Xtian, Druze, etc.
The idea that Palestinian Arabs have ever been an independent state is a fallacy (created in 1967).
The self-proclaimed Palestinian Arabs have two choices before them. Make peace with Israel and create a viable state in the lands they currently occupy. Or, keep trying to destroy Israel and endure the same kind of pain and suffering they have been inflicting on themselves for decades.
The last time Jews were expelled from Israel -- it took the largest military force in the known world 20 years of all-out war. Do you seriously think a few rockets are going to make them pack up and leave?

What do you mean a "viable State'.The Israelis have been leveling homes,orchards and farms for their developments in the West Bank.The map of the West Bank looks like swiss cheese.When the Palestinians fight for their land, water and people.Israel and our country calls them terrorists.
In reality Israel is a neo nazi state.The rest of the world agrees that Israel does not deserve to exist.It is giving the world Jewery a bad name and they don't deserve it.

Burt wrote:

<quoted text>
Sorry Cassual, you don't speak for the world. The world does not need or want another a-rab state. They already have a couple dozen and haven't given the world a single contribution in well over a thousand years.

Israel's greed will destroy it.

jus-tice wrote:

<quoted text>Israel's greed will destroy it.

Nonsense. Look at a map of the Middle East. Arabs control the entire area save tiny Israel. It is your greed that will prove your undoing.

jus-tice wrote:

<quoted text>What do you mean a "viable State'.The Israelis have been leveling homes,orchards and farms for their developments in the West Bank.The map of the West Bank looks like swiss cheese.When the Palestinians fight for their land, water and people.Israel and our country calls them terrorists.
In reality Israel is a neo nazi state.The rest of the world agrees that Israel does not deserve to exist.It is giving the world Jewery a bad name and they don't deserve it.

You don't speak for the world boy. Put down your whiskey bottle.

Hussein wrote:

But that is the past. What I fail to understand right now is the twisted logic within which the world operates, namely: how is it that a fresh convert to Judaism in Indiana has more of a right to be in the Holy Land than those who were expelled from their land (and still hold legal ownership to it)?

Because that fresh convert is not trying to make war against that state.

Be serious. Would it make sense to you for a nation, any nation, to welcome a population into its borders that is hostile to it?