Getting prickly when it's about Israel

Dear Mr. Grossman,

As a Palestinian man, I cannot help but sympathize with your situation. The tragedies that have befallen both our peoples are no laughing matter, and have yet to be fully addressed by those involved. The Europeans have yet to truly apologize for their involvement in the Holocaust (even France's faux-absolution of the matter is disgraceful), as is the case with the illegal immigrants that subsequently raided Palestine.

I call it "Palestine" because that is what it was called when my grandfather was there. It is stated on his Ottoman- and British- issued IDs, and was the home he always spoke of until his recent death. I think Ben Gurion said it best when he rhetorically asked why the Palestinians had to pay for the Europeans' atrocities. Then again, he still didn't show remorse.

But that is the past. What I fail to understand right now is the twisted logic within which the world operates, namely: how is it that a fresh convert to Judaism in Indiana has more of a right to be in the Holy Land than those who were expelled from their land (and still hold legal ownership to it)?

A state founded on the premise of religious entitlement is bound to fail. With that in mind, here's to a comprehensive, one-state solution.

And if not, may we senselessly slaughter one another until the victor retains what is left of this desolate land.

Hussein wrote:

Dear Mr. Grossman,
...A state founded on the premise of religious entitlement is bound to fail...

Is Pakistan bound to fail? How does the Muslim State of Pakistan differ in any significant way from Israel?

When the British disengaged from their empire, they partitioned many areas where ethnic minorities shared the same territory.

Indian Muslims (and their leader Jinnah) could not tolerate a state with Indian Hindus and the British partitioned India into (inexplicably) three separate areas who eventually became India, Pakistan and Bangladesh.

People were expelled from each area and re-settled into the nearest partition assigned to their specific ethnicity. Entire towns and communities were wiped out but the British (and Indian politicians) felt this was the only way to ensure peace in the future.

Saying Israel has no right to exist as an ethnic entity is the same as saying Pakistan or Bangladesh have nor right to exist.

Jewish Palestinians chose to accept what they were granted at partition and created a vibrant, rich and culturally diverse state (with includes over one million Arab Palestinians). Arab Palestinians (on the urging of their fellow Arabs) rejected their partition -- which was subsequently stolen by the surrounding Arab states of Egypt and Jordan.

If any is keen to punish those who stole the land of Arab Palestinians -- they need only look as far as Egypt and Jordan.

"Jewish Palestinians chose to accept what they were granted at partition and created a vibrant, rich and culturally diverse state"

Well, here's the thing: that's not true. Jewish Palestinians were numbered in the few dozen thousands at the turn of the 20th century. It is the hundreds of thousands of Jewish immigrants who had no ties whatsoever to the land that brought in the extra income (be it their own, or what they subsequently leeched from the US and Europe).

"Saying Israel has no right to exist as an ethnic entity is the same as saying Pakistan or Bangladesh have nor right to exist."

Actually, no. One can't "become" ethnically Pakistani no matter how hard he tries. I could, however, become a Jew in a year's time. Therein lies the difference. If the entire world converted to Hinduism, that doesn't mean they are entitled to large swathes of India. However, every new Jewish convert is entitled to have Israeli citizenship.

Hussein wrote:

Well, here's the thing: that's not true. Jewish Palestinians were numbered in the few dozen thousands at the turn of the 20th century.

There were more than a few "dozen" thousands at the turn of the century. In fact, based on Ottoman census records, Jews were the largest community in Jerusalem (as well as in Tiberias and Safed).

"It is the hundreds of thousands of Jewish immigrants who had no ties whatsoever to the land"

Herein lies the rub. The Jewish people have well over a THREE THOUSAND year tie to the land. Until Palestinians and Arabs publicly recognize that Jews are an INDIGENOUS PEOPLE, there will never be peace.

"or what they subsequently leeched from the US and Europe."

Really? How much do the Palestinians leech from the US and Europe? Ask UNRWA which supports the Palestinians with US and European money (so that they can have kids and live on the dole.) By law almost ALL of the US money "spent" on Israel stays in the US. It is basically a subsidy for the US military industrial complex.

"One can't "become" ethnically Pakistani no matter how hard he tries. I could, however, become a Jew in a year's time."

Good luck with that! Obviously you have no conception how hard it is to convert and be accepted by the Israeli rabbinate. I can assure you it will take you much longer than a year. In any case, every country can decide its immigration policies based on whatever criteria it wishes to use.

PS PAK-istani is a completely made up identity cooked up in 1934.

Seraph wrote:

<quoted text>
There were more than a few "dozen" thousands at the turn of the century. In fact, based on Ottoman census records, Jews were the largest community in Jerusalem (as well as in Tiberias and Safed).
"It is the hundreds of thousands of Jewish immigrants who had no ties whatsoever to the land"
Herein lies the rub. The Jewish people have well over a THREE THOUSAND year tie to the land.

Native Americans have an over 15,000 year tie to the land you're squatting on.

When can we expect you to leave so they can have it back?

Casual Observer wrote:

<quoted text>
Native Americans have an over 15,000 year tie to the land you're squatting on.
When can we expect you to leave so they can have it back?

Thanks for making my point for me i.e. that in the case of Israel the Jews are the Native Americans and the Arabs are the colonists.

PS I am here only for studies and will be heading back to my homeland soon. Which begs the question, when exactly do you plan to stop squatting on Native American soil?

Perspective and context are important factors in showing both bias and knowledge. History is a brutal fact that is subject to interpretation. From time to time every people claims both victimhood and righteous wrath to support the justice of their claims along with their view of history. But everybody can't be right. Lots of different people have made claims to certain land based upon thier peculiar history. Might makes right seems to be the only universal rule where migration and conquest are a constant.

Casual Observer wrote:

<quoted text>
Native Americans have an over 15,000 year tie to the land you're squatting on.
When can we expect you to leave so they can have it back?

I was born and raised outside Chicago, Il. therefore I AM a native American.

Everyone gets prickly when it is about them and their story whether or not they are the perceived victim or the claimed perpetrator. But what rules, logic or reason should guide those who are neither in a particular historical context? And what is equal and fair justice? And who will and should decide?

Ron, we all appreciate the pride you have in the Jewish state, but the IDF is imposing violent, ethnic-cleansing apartheid on the Palestinians, a collective punishment that is utterly not to be tolerated in the **** 21st century. If you believe in Tikkun, and you're a progressive Jewish American, then FREE PALESTINE, dude, just do it.

Dear Seraph,

"There were more than a few "dozen" thousands at the turn of the century. In fact, based on Ottoman census records, Jews were the largest community in Jerusalem"

Jerusalem housed between 8 and 20 thousand Jewish people. Your argument is nonsensical. The total Jewish population in the entire region of Biblical Palestine was of about 50,000 to 70,000. Yes, in my book, that is a "few dozen thousand"- four to six dozens, actually.

As for the Native American claim, here goes:

Nothing justifies what happened to the indigenous Indian people of America. That being said, the remaining survivors capitulated and accepted the pilgrims' terms. We Palestinians have refused to do so. We are still here, voicing our opposition to our own Shoah.

Moreover- and more importantly, I must add- your theory of Jewish presence in the holy land is deceiving at best, and malicious at worst. A few dozen thousand Jewish people cannot squat and "save their brothers' seats" until they decide to come back 2000 years later.

Being Jewish in and of itself is not a valid certificate of ownership. Any nutcase can form a religion and claim the region of his choice as his "homeland". That doesn't make him 'entitled' to it.

Fact of the matter is that over 80% of Israeli Jews are the descendants of illegal immigrants who raided Palestine either to escape persecution in Europe or evade the wrath of the Arab countries. The Palestinians who were kicked out of their homes had owned and lived in these lands for at least several hundred years.

Moreover, many of the "Palestinian Jews" in the Holy Land converted to Islam since the 1200's, a fact documented by a notable Israeli historian. http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/arti...

On a different note, have you heard of the squatter's rights in the US? A man living on an unclaimed property for 10 years can legally claim that property as his own. We've been there for 1900 years. I think we qualify as the land's legal owners. And today's Israelis can't make the same claim for themselves, as we are still demanding our Right of Return.

Oh, and one last thing: if Charles Taylor, the Liberian dictator, can convert to Judaism, I doubt it's as hard as you say it is.

Lame-O wrote:

the IDF is imposing violent, ethnic-cleansing apartheid on the Palestinians,... FREE PALESTINE, dude, just do it.

It is an odd sort of ethnic cleansing when every year there are more and more of them! If you really want to see violent ethnic cleansing and apartheid, then visit pretty much any Muslim country and by all means, free Palestine.

Hussein wrote:

Dear Seraph,
As for the Native American claim, here goes:
Nothing justifies what happened to the indigenous Indian people of America. That being said, the remaining survivors capitulated and accepted the pilgrims' terms. We Palestinians have refused to do so. We are still here, voicing our opposition to our own Shoah.

It is more than malicious to compare the situation of Palestinians to the Shoah, it is a complete distortion of history on innumerable levels. When you uncover millions of dead Palestinians and gas chambers, then you can talk about a Shoah.

Based on your argument, then there really is no reason for Israelis to make peace with Palestinians. Instead we should opt for the complete capitulation of the Palestinians.(I guess there are some things we can agree on. I.e. no peace without victory.)

As long as you continue to deny the undeniable - that Jews are indigenous people with a longstanding and unshakable bond to Israel there will always be conflict.

To say that Jews abandoned their claim to their land clearly shows that you know next to nothing about Judaism. Moreover, to compare Judaism to some made up religion is just rude.

You may find this to be an inconvenient fact, but there was nothing illegal about the migration of Jews to Israel. It was enshrined under the League of Nations Mandate in 1922 and again by the UN in 1948.

Frankly, it is the height of audacity for the Palestinians, a people who NEVER ONCE in history had an independent state, to compare their situation to the Jewish people, who ruled Israel for over a thousand years.

PS Charles Taylor did not UNDERGO conversion. He simply announced one day that he is Jewish, but noted that he is still a practicing Christian! I'm sure the Chief Rabbinate in Israel is already scouting out a villa for him in Tel Aviv. LOL!

"Frankly, it is the height of audacity for the Palestinians, a people who NEVER ONCE in history had an independent state, to compare their situation to the Jewish people, who ruled Israel for over a thousand years."

Name one Jewish ruler over Palestine in the last 1800 years (pre-1910). One. Seriously...

That's what I thought.

The fact that Palestine was part of a supranational entity (the Ottoman empire) does not mean that it was not a distinct nation. Actually, in 1955, France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxemburg (and subsequently Germany) debated whether or not they should do the same. They ended up forming an economic community (the EEC), and decided to forgo the former option. Now, does that mean that France would no longer exist if it is a part of a larger political entity? Your denial of our statehood is pathetic- and visibly flawed.

"there was nothing illegal about the migration of Jews to Israel"... The fact that the League of Nations didn't oppose it doesn't mean it was legal- or moral. The international community said almost nothing when Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed... were those justified?

"To say that Jews abandoned their claim to their land clearly shows that you know next to nothing about Judaism."

So are you really trying to sell me that your immigrant parents' ancestors left 1800 years ago with the intention of coming back in two millenniums? Wow, talk about patience.

"It is more than malicious to compare the situation of Palestinians to the Shoah"... I'm perfectly sorry- I didn't know tragedy had a minimum casualty threshold. Again, please excuse my 'foolish' comparison of the slaughter of tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians over 2 months with the murder of 6 million Jews over 6 years.

"As long as you continue to deny the undeniable - that Jews are indigenous people with a longstanding and unshakable bond to Israel there will always be conflict."

Actually, no. As long as the Holy Land is infested with ignorant, brainwashed behemoths (like yourself), then there definitely will be no peace.

Only in Israel will a nation PAY internet commenters to lie about their identities and defend their home state for propaganda purposes.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-374...

Because God forbid that people actually find out about your lunacy.

Hussein wrote:

Name one Jewish ruler over Palestine in the last 1800 years (pre-1910). One. Seriously...

What a joke! Name one Palestinian RULER.

To compare "Palestine's" role in the province of Damascus to the EU, is a spurious argument. There was never self-rule in "Palestine", whereas under the EU there was always a local government. In Ottoman times the Turks called the shots.

"The fact that the League of Nations didn't oppose it doesn't mean it was legal- or moral. The international community said almost nothing when Hiroshima and Nagasaki were bombed... were those justified?"

What are you talking about? The League of Nations voted in 1922 to CREATE the British Mandate on the sole condition that it would become the Jewish State. Other Mandates were also created (e.g. Syria, Iraq). To say that Israel has no legal right to exist is the same as saying that those countries have no right to exist.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_... )

"So are you really trying to sell me that your immigrant parents' ancestors left 1800 years ago with the intention of coming back in two millenniums? Wow, talk about patience."

We are a very patient people. My ancestors did not emigrate, they were forced out by the Romans. They had every intention of going back and said so, repeatedly and fervently, three times a day, every day in their prayers and commemorated it on days like today, Tisha B'Av when we fast to remember our exile.

"I'm perfectly sorry- I didn't know tragedy had a minimum casualty threshold. Again, please excuse my 'foolish' comparison of the slaughter of tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians over 2 months with the murder of 6 million Jews over 6 years."

There is no threshold to PERSONAL suffering, but you simply can not compare the Shoah to what the Palestinians have suffered. Otherwise, why not call 9-11 a Shoah? Or a car accident a Shoah? It has been not six, but SIXTY years since Israel was created and still no millions dead. Besides, "thousands" of Palestinians did not die in Gaza and a plurality of those who did, died with a weapon in their hand and a Hamas mask on their face. It's hardly a Shoah if they are shooting back at you. It's called self-defense.

"Only in Israel will a nation PAY internet commenters to lie about their identities and defend their home state for propaganda purposes."

I wish someone would pay me to refute your lies, but since it is Tisha B'Av it is a memorial day in Israel and ain't no one on the clock. You, on the other hand, "doth protest too much." Perhaps you are being paid by a Muslim "charity"?

Oh, and Taqiyya to you too.(http://www.islamreview.com/articles/lying.sht... )

Israel is defying the United Nations.

I seem to recall that defying the UN was one of the justifications given for bombing Iraq.

Bomb Israel!!

Israel is defying the United States.

Israel is defying the United Nations.

Why are we still being forced to pay for it all?

Herein lies why there will never be peace in the middle east. However, given the number of births that are occurring in Europe and the Middle East, it is likely that eventually these lands will become Muslim in the near future. Likewise, North America is becoming increasingly Latinized, who are of course predominately Catholic.

So, using my futurist crystal ball, I predict that the Western Hemisphere will be populated by ethnic Latinos and with the rest of the world predominately Muslim that there will be a final showdown between Islam and Christianity (Israel will eventually be overrun by Muslims) in the way that King Richard and Saladin faced each other in the 1100's.

The exception will be that the faithful, on both sides, will have access to nuclear weapons.

gilmore wrote:

Herein lies why there will never be peace in the middle east. However, given the number of births that are occurring in Europe and the Middle East, it is likely that eventually these lands will become Muslim in the near future. Likewise, North America is becoming increasingly Latinized, who are of course predominately Catholic.
So, using my futurist crystal ball, I predict that the Western Hemisphere will be populated by ethnic Latinos and with the rest of the world predominately Muslim that there will be a final showdown between Islam and Christianity (Israel will eventually be overrun by Muslims) in the way that King Richard and Saladin faced each other in the 1100's.
The exception will be that the faithful, on both sides, will have access to nuclear weapons.

The CDC is estimating that 40% of the population will get swine flu this fall/winter. Perhaps mother nature will slow down the muslim/latrino infestation.

"What a joke! Name one Palestinian RULER."

I just said that Palestine was part of a larger, supranational political entity. That doesn't mean that it wasn't a distinct state. My late grandfather was born in 1914, and his Ottoman ID clearly states he is "Palestinian".

"Other Mandates were also created (e.g. Syria, Iraq). To say that Israel has no legal right to exist is the same as saying that those countries have no right to exist. "

No country whatsoever has a "right to exist as a state of a certain religion". In other words, just as Iraq has no "right to exist as a Muslim state", and the Philippines has no "right to exist as a Christian state", Israel does NOT have a "right to exist as a Jewish state". The latter would mean that it can use whatever means necessary- including deportation and ethnic cleansing- to preserve that "right".

"My ancestors did not emigrate, they were forced out by the Romans. They had every intention of going back"

Well, first: Happy Tisha B'Av. Second, your ancestors had every chance to go back from the 1200's till 1910 and still didn't do so. After Saladin's final seizure of Jerusalem, Jews were allowed to live freely and unhindered in the Holy Land. Hell, you could have come WALKING and it still wouldn't have taken you 710 years to get there. Spare me.

"There is no threshold to PERSONAL suffering, but you simply can not compare the Shoah to what the Palestinians have suffered."

http://www.reuters.com/article/featuredCrisis...

Actually, if Matan Vilnai can threaten a Shoah against the Gazan people, I definitely think that the Nakba of 1948 can be considered one as well.

"Oh, and Taqiyya to you too."

I think it's sad that people like you resort to baseless religious-bashing to move the light away from Israel. Not once have I criticized the Jewish religion (although the Talmud does give me plenty of cannon fodder). So kindly do me the same justice.

What I find heart-wrenching is that a single minute event in history (namely: "who started it") can frame an entire people's perceptions on right and wrong. The Jews believe the Palestinians wrongfully attacked them during their early 20th century Aaliyah, while the Palestinians see it as a natural response to them being shoved out by hundreds of thousands of unwanted illegal immigrants.

Burt wrote:

<quoted text>
The CDC is estimating that 40% of the population will get swine flu this fall/winter. Perhaps mother nature will slow down the muslim/latrino infestation.

You best get down to he public health center and get your flu shot, Burt.

Living in close proximity, like you do in the trailer, makes your chance of infection greater.