Baha'i rift: Baha'is upset with Orthodox Baha'i Faith

Susan wrote:

<quoted text>
And a stretch it is, given the fact that there is no real adoption in the sense that one becomes an heir in Islam, nor do the Writings say anything on the subject. It is just something Remey did so his life-long companion could inherit.

This is illustrative of how far off the mark these ones are, this has absolutely nothing to do with anything about Islam. The laws of Islam are not the laws of the Baha'i Faith so any use of that is as an argument here is completely irrelevant.

This type of comment by these two is more misdirection to and shows just how confused these poor enemies of the Covenant are.

Janice wrote:

I don't personally have access to letters that Pepe wrote. I believe Doris posted some very pertinent information regarding Pepe not wanting to be Guardian and other things about him not being Baha'i. That was pages and pages ago, but I will try to find it for the information of the friends presently visiting this discussion.

You're quite right. You don't personally have access to volumes of material which could enlighten you as to why you follow a false claimant to the Guardianship but then your condition of ignorance is no different than that of the other enemies of the Covenant here in that they also have no access to these things.
These volumes, most of which there are no copies of extant in the world are all in the possession of the True and Rightful Heir to the Throne of King David and the Guardianship of the Baha'i Faith (as they are one and the same) who is Neal Chase ben Joseph Aghsan.

Of course they are in his possession because he inherited them from the previous Guardian of the Baha'i Faith who was his adoptive father, Joseph Pepe Remey Aghsan. Nobody else inherited them. Not Marangella not Hrvey, nobody else but the current living Aghsan Guardian, Neal Chase.

So kick and scream and whine and moan and wail and complain all you want and deny it all but the facts are immutable and your opposition to the Covenant is being set more rigidly with every single post you each make here.

The first thing that keeps you all from clearly seeing and accepting the answers to ALL of your "questions" is your collective and individual attitudes. You approach the entire matter with arrogance and obstinacy. You'll NEVER get ANYTHING you ask for with the attitudes you have. You all act like spoiled brats. Fortunately God is the Most Loving of Fathers and He will always accept repentance as long as one doesn't actually hate the light of the Holy Spirit which Abdu'l-Baha defines as Blasphemy.

Take a fresh approach to the Throne and your fortunes will surely change. Or...keep being the ones who oppose His Covenant and play out that role to the bitter end but know that if you don't oppose and attack the Covenant as you all are there will be others who arise like a fresh crop of zombies to continue the "work" you're now doing. The choice has always been yours but as He says, He has a fixed time for all of us.

KPS59,
Arrogant? Why do you not ask any questions? Has your search for Truth ended? Are you no longer curious about other faiths?(Oh and by the way, we are all praying to the same God.) Have you studied only the BUPC website? How often do you visit the other religious sites? How often do you wonder if perhaps you might be the one in error? There is that possibility for all of us. In fact our estimation of God is so small in comparison to how Great God really is. I am nothing, you are nothing, we are all nothing in comparison to Mighty God. We are all brothers and sisters of God's creation. I am praying for you.

KPS59 wrote:

<quoted text>
This is illustrative of how far off the mark these ones are, this has absolutely nothing to do with anything about Islam. The laws of Islam are not the laws of the Baha'i Faith so any use of that is as an argument here is completely irrelevant.
This type of comment by these two is more misdirection to and shows just how confused these poor enemies of the Covenant are.

What an odd and irrational position for you to take when you are constantly quoting the Bible and holding the Bible up over and above the Baha'i Writings. In fact, the Baha'i teachings uphold the past Dispensations including Judaism, Christianity and Islam, but their Holy Books must be read in light of the Baha'i teachings. But for some reason, the BUPC have decided the Bible comes first, the Baha'i Writings come second, and Islam counts not at all.

We have consistently pointed out the irrational nature of the BUPC positions and their only response is that we are enemies of God and that we have obviously not read their web sites. The problem is their web sites are nonsensical pablum. They have not responded to a single rational objection that anyone has raised here except to denounce the objector. Then they have the arrogance to call us arrogant.

KPS59 wrote:

I don't agree with Frederick Glaysher on his basic premise about the W&T of Abdu'l-Baha but as a BUPC I would never approve of any effort to censure, silence, or strip him of his God given right to believe as he chooses.
Those Mr. Glaysher is exposing here in general and in particular are working feverishly to do exactly those things, not just to Mr. Glaysher but to any other individual or group which professes the name of Baha' and refuses to submit to their totalitarian regime.

KPS59,

Thank you for your comments. Your willingness to speak out is very important, especially given the BUPC court experience. I think it's essential that the various Bahai denominations set a better example of respecting one another's opinions and freedom of conscience than past religions or the Haifans.

Bahai regards,

Frederick Glaysher

Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship

My comments posted to the discussion of this article in the Chicago Tribune Forum on one page:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Chic...

Yahoo Group - ReformBahai
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReformBahai

RossCampbell wrote:

Quinn wrote:
"Fred fell out of the boat because he has no such legitimate interpreter....
Cordially,
Ross

Ross,

Thank you for your comment.

While I respect your opinion and belief, permit me to say that, actually, in my view, Abdul-Baha did not appoint anyone, as he said and warned against repeatedly. The historical record of *all* of the Bahai books and periodicals published prior to 1921 demonstrate that fact. It's only after the fraudulent will and testament is forced upon the early Bahais, overing a couple of generations, really, that people came to believe it--often because they didn't know the truth, despite Ruth White and Dr. C. Ainsworth Mitchell's efforts to wake people up.

Abdul-Baha's teaching was solely that a properly elected Universal House of Justice would guide the community:

"After Abdul-Baha—whenever the Universal House of Justice is organized it will ward off differences."
www.reformbahai.org/Covenant.html

That's it in a nutshell. Far from falling out of the boat, I and Reform Bahais have figured it out and gotten back in it.

Bahai regards,

Frederick Glaysher

Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship

My comments posted to the discussion of this article in the Chicago Tribune Forum on one page:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Chic...

Yahoo Group - ReformBahai
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReformBahai

Jeffrey wrote:

<quoted text>I do pray for the Baha'i victims of oppression in Iran, but also that the heterodox Baha'is might learn from this experience and back away from their own oppressive court action against the Orthodox Baha'is. Let us recognize the right of all persons to practice their faith as they see fit, including the BUPC, and that everyone should have the right of free expression to discuss the truth freely and openly so that all persons might decide for themselves what is true.

Amen.

Frederick Glaysher

Baha'i Faith & Religious Freedom of Conscience
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship

My comments posted to the discussion of this article in the Chicago Tribune Forum on one page:
http://www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship/Chic...

Yahoo Group - ReformBahai
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ReformBahai

The Bible? Seriously? The Bible?

Shoghi Effendi describes the Holy Qur'an as the ONLY work of scripture, apart from the Babi and Baha'i writings, that is "an absolutely authenticated Repository of the Word of God." It contains a fuller expression of God's purpose and guidance than any preceding scripture, and its "thorough study" is "absolutely indispensable" to fully understand Baha'u'llah's writings.

I don't judge anyone as a "Covenant-breaker" and try to have goodwill for all Baha'is, including those not part of the mainstream (like the BUPC). But their emphasis on so-called Biblical prophecy, apocalyptic doom and gloom, Davidic kings, Nostradamus ... good grief. Maybe we should try to identify the next Manifestation of God by reading tea-leaves or coffee-grounds ... it smacks of idolatry and fear-mongering. At least the other Baha'i groups don't flog "kingdom and catastrophe" as tenets of the Faith, they don't try to terrify anyone into becoming a Baha'i.

In response to those who are tweaking on the laws of prior dispensations and their suggestion that the BUPC position somehow differs from that of Baha'i Scripture. The following statement by Abdu'l-Baha is of course the BUPC position.

"...the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things--that is to say, it refers
to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, &Muhammad, the &Bab, and &Baha'u'llah, and which lasts and is established in all the prophetic cycles.

The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for
murder, violence, theft and injuries--this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is modified and altered in each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times.

KPS59 wrote:

In response to those who are tweaking on the laws of prior dispensations and their suggestion that the BUPC position somehow differs from that of Baha'i Scripture. The following statement by Abdu'l-Baha is of course the BUPC position.
"...the Law of God is divided into two parts. One is the fundamental basis which comprises all spiritual things--that is to say, it refers
to the spiritual virtues and divine qualities; this does not change nor alter: it is the Holy of Holies, which is the essence of the Law of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Christ, &Muhammad, the &Bab, and &Baha'u'llah, and which lasts and is established in all the prophetic cycles.
The second part of the Religion of God, which refers to the material world, and which comprises fasting, prayer, forms of worship, marriage and divorce, the abolition of slavery, legal processes, transactions, indemnities for
murder, violence, theft and injuries--this part of the Law of God, which refers to material things, is modified and altered in each prophetic cycle in accordance with the necessities of the times.

That has precisely nothing to do with the point people are making. Jeffrey said it best - why do the bupc put the Bible first, Baha'i scripture second, and totally ignore Islam?
Are you *ever* actually going to address the *actual* point that is raised?

In response to all of the absurd comments accusing the Bahai's Under the Provisions of the Covenant of a lopsided emphasis upon or exclusion of the study of any dispensations prior to Baha'u'llah's, suffice it to say that these desperate ones have no idea the depth of study the individuals among the ranks of the BUPC have given and continue increasingly to give to the teachings of all the Manifestations and all the minor prophets and mystics and seers and visionaries of all cultures and climes of the earth.

These miscreants knowledge is obviously spotty and sparse as is their reading of the BUPC websites as well as the Holy Writings of the Manifestations including Baha'u'llah so their understanding is of course, truncated.

This is owing to their attitude toward the various Promised Ones of God and this debilitating attitude they all reflect is what predisposes them each to blindly reject that which they're unwilling to comprehend and therefore perceive as foreign to them.

Here is one for them to perceive or to trip over as they choose:

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever." Revelation 11:15

Abdu'l-Baha's commentary:

"The seventh angel is a man qualified with heavenly attributes, who will arise with heavenly qualities and character. Voices will be raised, so that the appearance of the Divine Manifestation will be proclaimed and diffused.
In the day of the manifestation of the Lord of Hosts, and at the epoch of the divine cycle of the Omnipotent which is promised and mentioned in all the books and writings of the Prophets--in that day of God, the Spiritual and Divine
Kingdom will be established, and the world will be
renewed; a new spirit will be breathed into the body of creation; the season of the divine spring will come; the clouds of mercy will rain; the sun of reality will shine; the life-giving breeze will blow; the world of humanity will wear a new garment; the surface of the earth will be a sublime paradise; mankind will be educated; wars, disputes, quarrels and malignity will disappear; and truthfulness, righteousness, peace and the worship of God will appear; union, love and brotherhood will surround the world; and
God will rule for evermore--meaning that the Spiritual and Everlasting Kingdom will be established. Such is the day of God. For all the days which have come and gone were the days of Abraham, Moses and Christ, or of the other Prophets; but this day is the day of God, for the Sun of Reality will arise in it with the utmost warmth and splendor."

Seems that Abdu'l-Baha thought it important enough to explain very large parts of Biblical Text, even entire chapters in great specificity and detail.

Those who try to cast aspersions upon the study of the Biblical Scriptures and any others and exalt one Manifestation over another and misconstrue statements by Shoghi Effendi in an effort to justify their imposition of disparity among the Holy Manifestations of God are addressed by Baha'u'llah and clearly identified by Him as well. Beware of those who practice that form of deceit. They are the ones who like the various clergies draw lines of division and opposition where God has drawn no lines at all. This is how they separate the people from God.

Jeffrey wrote:

We have consistently pointed out the irrational nature of the BUPC positions and their only response is that we are enemies of God and that we have obviously not read their web sites. The problem is their web sites are nonsensical pablum. They have not responded to a single rational objection that anyone has raised here except to denounce the objector. Then they have the arrogance to call us arrogant.

You are arrogant. Every one. As well as obstinate, recalcitrant, and pridefully unrepentant when given the true and correct answers to all of your challenges ("questions") and the places on the web to find them rendered in much greater detail. You don't like the answers given even when it's directly from the Holy scriptures of Baha'u'llah or those of the other Manifestations confirmed by Baha'u'llah.

Janice wrote:

KPS59,
Arrogant? Why do you not ask any questions? Has your search for Truth ended? Are you no longer curious about other faiths?(Oh and by the way, we are all praying to the same God.) Have you studied only the BUPC website? How often do you visit the other religious sites? How often do you wonder if perhaps you might be the one in error? There is that possibility for all of us. In fact our estimation of God is so small in comparison to how Great God really is. I am nothing, you are nothing, we are all nothing in comparison to Mighty God. We are all brothers and sisters of God's creation. I am praying for you.

"janice", any Baha'i who is Under the Provisions of the Covenant possesses a thing which you could have but apparently lack. CERTITUDE.

KPS59 wrote:

<quoted text>
"janice", any Baha'i who is Under the Provisions of the Covenant possesses a thing which you could have but apparently lack. CERTITUDE.

There is a difference between certitude and fanaticism.

Certitude is not afraid of questions. Fanaticism is.

Certitude does not see those who asks those questions as enemies, or engage in personal attacks. Fanaticism does.

I am certain that the bupc are fanatics.

KPS59 wrote:

<quoted text>
You are arrogant. Every one. As well as obstinate, recalcitrant, and pridefully unrepentant when given the true and correct answers to all of your challenges ("questions") and the places on the web to find them rendered in much greater detail. You don't like the answers given even when it's directly from the Holy scriptures of Baha'u'llah or those of the other Manifestations confirmed by Baha'u'llah.

Its not that I don't like the answers given, its just that they are so irrational that I cannot comprehend them. Maybe if I ingest the right species of mushroom...

Jeffrey wrote:

<quoted text>What an odd and irrational position for you to take when you are constantly quoting the Bible and holding the Bible up over and above the Baha'i Writings. In fact, the Baha'i teachings uphold the past Dispensations including Judaism, Christianity and Islam, but their Holy Books must be read in light of the Baha'i teachings. But for some reason, the BUPC have decided the Bible comes first, the Baha'i Writings come second, and Islam counts not at all.

Jeffry, you like the sun right. You count on the sun rising each morning right? Well why would you prefer the sun of Yesterday to the sun of today?

Peace

Freedom of Conscience wrote:

<quoted text>
Far from falling out of the boat, I and Reform Bahais have figured it out and gotten back in it.
Bahai regards,
Frederick Glaysher

A grand delusion! And based in attacking Abdu'l-Baha (various precepts). Frederick, with all your intelligence you still haven't gotten on the Ark. I know too, because I don't see you in it yet!

Godspeed.

Peace

Quinn wrote:

<quoted text>
There is a difference between certitude and fanaticism.
Certitude is not afraid of questions. Fanaticism is.
Certitude does not see those who asks those questions as enemies, or engage in personal attacks. Fanaticism does.
I am certain that the bupc are fanatics.

Quinn, sounds like you are fanatic that the BUPC are fanatic. But I am certain that it is certitude. Think Babi martyr certitude. Yet I must admit that I am a fan of it all too!

Peace

"As to the question raised by...in connection with Baha'u'llah's statement in the 'Gleanings' concerning the sacrifice of Ishmael; although this statement does not agree with that made in the Bible, Genesis 22:9, the friends should unhesitatingly, and for reasons that are only too obvious, give precedence to the saying of Baha'u'llah, which, it should be pointed out, is fully corroborated by the Qur'an which book is far more authentic than the Bible, including both the New and Old Testaments. The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Baha'u'llah."
(From a letter dated July 28, 1936 written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to a National Spiritual Assembly)