Vietnam War draft dodgers reunite in Canada

They better not be allowed to come back.

Tamara wrote:

They better not be allowed to come back.

Too late ... I think Carter changed that.

The only protesters that I have the slightest respect for are the ones who went to jail. THAT's showing the courage of your convictions.

I'd rather have illegal Mexicans in my country than any of this group.

Yeah, true americans go off to a useless war started by powermongers and warhawks and get blown away, thereby helping to destroy their wives and/or families!! What the hell's wrong with these guys?

Now....let me understand this. George Bush has his father "hide" him somewhere in the National Guard. No records. You don't ever ask why no records? Dick Cheney, 5 deferments. No comment? Gov't officials start wars, but unfortunately, their kids don't go fight in them. Why should the average citizen have to send his kid to die? These people are branded a coward? You have a distorted view of how things are truly done in this world. These are no more cowards, than George W. Bush. Quit with the spin. Good thing these "protesters" survived the Gov't genocide that was called the Vietnam War. Let me tell you, if every Gov't official that signed his name to start a war, had to actually go fight on the front lines of that war.....there would be NO WAR. That is the truth. End of subject, hypocrite!

A free country like ours has to accept a certian amount of decent. It is time to bury the hatchet and welcome these men back. They should face a court of law if there is a charge after all this time and after that we need , as a nation , to move on.

Just An Observor wrote:

Now....let me understand this. George Bush has his father "hide" him somewhere in the National Guard. No records. You don't ever ask why no records? Dick Cheney, 5 deferments. No comment? Gov't officials start wars, but unfortunately, their kids don't go fight in them. Why should the average citizen have to send his kid to die? These people are branded a coward? You have a distorted view of how things are truly done in this world. These are no more cowards, than George W. Bush. Quit with the spin. Good thing these "protesters" survived the Gov't genocide that was called the Vietnam War. Let me tell you, if every Gov't official that signed his name to start a war, had to actually go fight on the front lines of that war.....there would be NO WAR. That is the truth. End of subject, hypocrite!

What a silly rant you engaged in. The current President was a fighter pilot in the Air National Guard. And if you really believe George W. Bush is a coward, you're a terrible judge of people. Cheney had valid medical excuses and the average citizen doesn't have to send his kid to die. We have an all volunteer military now and besides, young men don't go into the service to die but to serve their country and kill, if necessary, the enemy. Vietnam was not a genocide. It was a war badly conducted by LBJ and one which took Nixon years to extricate us from. The real genocide began only after we left, which was in part why we were there in the first place to prevent totalitarian domination and destruction. You're full of cliches (and errors). Can't you do any better than this? And you speak of distortion?

Wellington wrote:

<quoted text>
What a silly rant you engaged in. The current President was a fighter pilot in the Air National Guard. And if you really believe George W. Bush is a coward, you're a terrible judge of people. Cheney had valid medical excuses and the average citizen doesn't have to send his kid to die. We have an all volunteer military now and besides, young men don't go into the service to die but to serve their country and kill, if necessary, the enemy. Vietnam was not a genocide. It was a war badly conducted by LBJ and one which took Nixon years to extricate us from. The real genocide began only after we left, which was in part why we were there in the first place to prevent totalitarian domination and destruction. You're full of cliches (and errors). Can't you do any better than this? And you speak of distortion?

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you.

GWB's daddy got him a prize that probably would have kept some of the cowards who slunk off to Canada here in the states - a spot in the National Guard. Even as late as 1973 there was a two-three year waiting list for a slot, depending on what state you are talking about. There is nothing particularly brave about flying planes too obsolete to go into combat along the Mexican/American border.

The simple fact of the matter is, John Kerry, George Bush, and Bill Clinton are all pretty representative of that/my generation. Some guys went, some guys hid in the reserves, some guys protested (but didn't inhale). For the record, my number was 279 in a year when they didn't take anyone above 90-something.

I know two guys who served on river boats - one of them thinks Kerry is the devil incarante, the guy with a stump where his left leg used to be thinks he's fine. So please spare me the feeding frenzy at the mention of his name, okay?

I don't know if GW is a coward or not, but his Reserve service is certainly no indicator - less than 10,000 Reservists ended up in Vietnam during the entire war (not counting junior enlisted folks who had a two year active duty period to fulfill).

DO NOT try to compare the Reserves and Guard of today with the unit(s) that Bush served in. They are as different as SpecOps forces are from the friggin' Boy Scouts. In the words of a 'Nam vet, Bush was a "fortunate one" who got a spot in the Guard - somebody else's spot, probably.

Vietnam was, to use a technical military phrase, a clusterfu** of titanic proportions. Johnson fought it stupid, and Nixon exceeded his stupidity. The sad fact of the matter is, WE COULD NOT WIN. We paid to lose it once ten years before we made a major commitment, and those guys knew the country far better than we did. That's not a reflection of the honor that the men and women who fought and died there in any way, shape, or form. We backed an artifical government in the beginning that had no relationship with the people they were leading, and much more interest in enriching themselves than creating a nation, and we never had a chance.

I do, however, expect a flashback to the Vietnam era in the very near future - probably in October, about four weeks before the first Tuesday in November. There will be an announcement of Peace with Honor and a massive troop withdrawal. I will have trouble NOT hearing Condi speaking with a German accent when it happens.

Sigh.

GWB was what one 'Nam vet (John Fogarty) called a "fortunate son." His daddy got him into the Guard ahead of people who'd been on a waiting list for years. A whole lot of folks wanted to get into the Guard because it's warmer than Canada, apparently.

DO NOT confuse the Guard that Bush served in with the Guard of today. There was next to no chance that Guard units would be called up even if a second conflict equal in size to Vietnam were to have broken out. They were ill-equipped, ill-trained, and very few units were remotely ready for extended service, let alone combat-ready.

Nixon didn't do any better in Vietnam than Johnson did. I think we discovered that in '75. There was no way in hell we could have won that war without making the fraudulent country of South Vietnam the 51st state and moved in. That is not a reflectin of the valor or the honor of the folks who fought and died there, either - it's merely the political reality. We fought that war with a bunch of puppets and lackeys eager to suck on American's money-tit, and paid little or no attention to them after '67 anyway.

I don't have an opinion on Cheney's deferments, by the way, because I don't think it matters. If you were alive in that era, you know that even most of the folks who supported the war weren't willing to put their ass where their mouth was. There are lots of brokers and bankers and attorneys out there, good Republican burghers all, who dropped out of seminary or graduate school in underwater floral basketweaving or recovered from an incurable diseases about the time they quit calling people up.

I don't mean to give the impression I think negatively about Bush for serving in the reserves. Hell, I knew a couple of folks who paid big money, er, who donated to political campaigns in order to get into the guard. Just don't try and pass that off as service in the conventional sense, please. The nature of the way he obtained his precious slot in the Guard alone belies that.

Sorry about the double post - browser's acting oddly tonight.

I had two brothers in boot camp when the V. Nam war ended. I was young and thought it would be like WW2 ending. Boy was I wrong! The war and the times{my father worked in Chigago during the Dem. convention} tore my family apart and my nation apart for a time. I have met the ones who went and the ones who dodged. All have paid a price for their decisions. Some would tell me of the beauty of Nam, the beaches, the jungles, and little more. Some would tell me of the beauty of the Canadian wilderness,the animals, the lakes, and little more. I understood, They both appreciated being alive. People often do things they are not proud of to stay that way.

Wellington wrote:

<quoted text>
Cheney had valid medical excuses....

Actually, in his own words, he "had other priorities."

These included getting married to his high school sweetheart, Lynn, starting a family and flunking out of Yale -- twice.

As well as getting two DWI's.

I'll grant you he did finally graduate from the University of Wyoming with a BA and then an MA in poly-sci.

But, to claim that he had some other reason is simply untrue.

Wild Weird Willie wrote:

GWB was what one 'Nam vet (John Fogarty) called a "fortunate son." His daddy got him into the Guard ahead of people who'd been on a waiting list for years. A whole lot of folks wanted to get into the Guard because it's warmer than Canada, apparently.

DO NOT confuse the Guard that Bush served in with the Guard of today. There was next to no chance that Guard units would be called up even if a second conflict equal in size to Vietnam were to have broken out. They were ill-equipped, ill-trained, and very few units were remotely ready for extended service, let alone combat-ready.

Actually agree with Willie on this, it's an accurate statement.

Hey Willie, Fogerty was a Nam Vet? I had never heard that. Any knowlege of when his tour was? That would exsplain run thru the jungle.

I always thought " who'll stop the rain " was about vietnam. Long before it was the title track to a movie.

Wellington wrote:

<quoted text>
What a silly rant you engaged in. The current President was a fighter pilot in the Air National Guard. And if you really believe George W. Bush is a coward, you're a terrible judge of people. Cheney had valid medical excuses and the average citizen doesn't have to send his kid to die. We have an all volunteer military now and besides, young men don't go into the service to die but to serve their country and kill, if necessary, the enemy. Vietnam was not a genocide. It was a war badly conducted by LBJ and one which took Nixon years to extricate us from. The real genocide began only after we left, which was in part why we were there in the first place to prevent totalitarian domination and destruction. You're full of cliches (and errors). Can't you do any better than this? And you speak of distortion?

What a pathetic human you make. Drink some more of the B.S. kool-aid and get bloated!

Wild Weird Willie wrote:

Sorry about the double post - browser's acting oddly tonight.

Willie ... perhaps you are under Surveillance !

Just An Observor wrote:

Now....let me understand this. George Bush has his father "hide" him somewhere in the National Guard. No records. You don't ever ask why no records? Dick Cheney, 5 deferments. No comment? Gov't officials start wars, but unfortunately, their kids don't go fight in them. Why should the average citizen have to send his kid to die? These people are branded a coward? You have a distorted view of how things are truly done in this world. These are no more cowards, than George W. Bush. Quit with the spin. Good thing these "protesters" survived the Gov't genocide that was called the Vietnam War. Let me tell you, if every Gov't official that signed his name to start a war, had to actually go fight on the front lines of that war.....there would be NO WAR. That is the truth. End of subject, hypocrite!

Is Dan Rather back ?

Wild Weird Willie wrote:

Sigh.
GWB was what one 'Nam vet (John Fogarty) called a "fortunate son."

I don't think so ...
>>> Leroy Shafer, chief operating officer of the Houston Livestock Show and Rodeo, has seen every concert at the rodeo for 33 years.
"John Fogerty's performance was special; I will always remember it. It was one of the most memorable concerts of my life," he said.
"I flew helicopters and combat missions in Vietnam. Whenever I'd get back to base, I'd turn on my Creedence Clearwater Revival records and play them as loud as I could. His performance at the rodeo was very emotional for me.
"John and I talked about Vietnam before the show.[U]He was in the Army during that time but was sent somewhere else.[/U] He said he had a special place in his heart for people who did go to Vietnam, though. At the beginning of the show, when they showed that film of the helicopter landing, I don't mind saying this, I nearly lost it." <<<
http://www.johnfogerty.com/main.php
I also believe he was talkin' about Al Gore (view Mr. Gore's "weapons management:" http://www.tincher.to/images/gore_nam.jpg )...(among others) Clinton comes to mind.
John "Johnny Four Months" Kerry also was in country ... for FOUR MONTHS!
Real Vietnam Veterans (Bless Them All!) are more likely to be silent about their service to outsiders ... until someone "stirs up the shiite."
Cheers!

clydecaddy wrote:

<quoted text>Is Dan Rather back ?

Actually, I heard a rumor Nixon might be.