Steel rail transit costs less, but it's noisier

The differences in noise levels aren't that great. They'll all be annoying to many during quiet hours, but no matter what rail tech, or bus system, there's going to be a lot more noise on the road 20 years from now. The BIG deal is having a RELIABLE system. Out in the middle of the oil-based Pacific Basin, we can't afford to get a billion dollar system stopped up by broken parts and unavailable replacement components. Reliability MUST come first, especially given the noise realities of all choices. (I still am convinced an all-bus system is far, far better for Oahu, but I accept that view as a lost cause these days).

Who cares...O'ahu was ruined decades ago. There's 1,000,000 people on that island. Why not live on the mainland where the cost-of-living is 25% less and the salaries are higher? What's so good about O'ahu...the Symphony?

Michael

Also, has anyone looked at the table? Noise level for rubber tire by APTS is less than 80db. For IHI Corp, it's at 74db. So how is this superior to steel on steel? One thing's for sure, the lifespan of a steel wheel is far longer than a rubber tire.

Hope someone in Transportation is reading these comments.

The City of Phoenix is putting in a light rail system. They are now on hold because the steel they were using for rails is defective. Someone needs to find out what company they are using and NOT contract with that company.

I am not an engineer.

But one word is all you need in predicting the hopeless failure this train will be.

RUST!.

Have these fools ever lived in Hawaii and seen what happens to metal.

Even brass and copper rust in Hawaii. Steel is useless. Talk to Aloha Stadium

Not to mention I dare anyone to name me one city that had a traffic problem, built mass transit, and then did not have an equal or worst traffic problem. You can't because there aren't any.

Mass transit merely justifies greater development which keeps traffic right where it is.

Hawaii has one of the best bus systems in the country. They should have expanded on that system with more parking structures all over the island allowing people to park for free and jump on buses that run more often. That system would cost far less and could grow and adapt to changing technology.

Steel on steel rail is going to be a disaster.

Tsarbomba wrote:

Also, has anyone looked at the table? Noise level for rubber tire by APTS is less than 80db. For IHI Corp, it's at 74db. So how is this superior to steel on steel? One thing's for sure, the lifespan of a steel wheel is far longer than a rubber tire.

Tsar~

You do realize that the decibel is logarithmic don't you? How's that work again? Well, here's an example:

A mosquito's buzz is often rated with a decibel rating of 40 dB. Normal conversation is often rated at 60 dB. How many times more intense is normal conversation compared to a mosquito's buzz?

Answer: 100 times

See the point?

And about those sound walls...the Train To Nowhere elevated sections will be on average 35 feet up in the air. Now we need to build another 3-5 feet of sound wall? That's going to look real, real attractive friend. Oh well, at least it will give the graffiti artists additional canvas.

fishwrap wrote:

The differences in noise levels aren't that great. They'll all be annoying to many during quiet hours...

- 400 times a day between 4am and midnight.

- logarithmic decibel scale = big difference in noise intensity

Let's keep the facts out in front, okay?

Same noise level as an accelerating bus. End of story.

Yawnnnnnnn.

SuzyQ wrote:

Btw, it's nice of Sebbe to say build it quick when he's not living next to it all the time.
I do live here all the time, and am adamantly opposed to this boondoggle.
I live in Waikiki & Sebbe, from here you don't need a train to downtown. Cycle, walk, take the bus. If you're driving and complaining about it, you're part of the problem

Just to clarify. I do not drive. I do not even have a car. I make 100k and make the responsibly choice to walk, bike, take the bus or take a taxi when I need.

Even though the elevated train lines in Chicago are noisy, I believe the convenience of living close to stations make real estate surrounding stations highly desirable locations to live.

The biggest mistake in this project is not i.e. the airport and Waikiki. I'm hoping by 2020 at the latest.

Watch and listen to these two videos from YouTube and tell me that the noise is not an issue.... especially if it goes by 400x a day... 4am to midnight...

The first video is taken at Fruitvale just last November. The TOD shown, Fruitvale Village, turned out to be a total flop. Part of the reason for the failure is the horrendous noise and vibrations of the trains coming and going.

http://youtube.com/watch...

This second is a clip from KHON TV.

http://www.khon2.com/news/local/16011612.html

How would you like that lawnmower going through your neighborhood every 3 to 10 minutes, 400-times/day, from 4:00 am to midnight???

And the noise and vibrations will not only negatively impact residential properties, how about those who have restaurants, stores, offices, etc. along the rail route? It'll negatively impact all of them, personally and economically.

I think that the City should be required to give actual notice to all property owners, and residents within 1/2-mile along the rail route.

Perhaps hold a meeting and give a live, simulation of the noise and vibrations the train will make, and let them sit there to experience it for 1 hour.... with the noise and vibrations happening every 5 minutes. Then let them vote.

Even TheMayor admits that Councilman Cachola will probably get "pushed" by his constituents on this noise issue.

Just so's you know...

...every increase of 3 decibels represents a doubling of the intensity of noise.

70 and 80 look like numbers that are pretty close together but 80 decibels is 100 times more intense.

Facts.

Manny Silva wrote:

I am not an engineer.
But one word is all you need in predicting the hopeless failure this train will be.
RUST!.

yep, you are not an engineer

I'm all for the rail, but I thought the magnetic or rubber whennl was the best. On top of the noise (yes, a problem, but less so than more cars), it seems like steel will need more maintenance in the long run (remember what salt air does to our cars?). I guess the mayor ensures someone a hefty contract on the tail end for that little nugget. Also, I think the project should not break ground until they bury the crap-pipe on the ala wai. Just my two cents.

Cat Manapua wrote:

<quoted text>
Tsar~
You do realize that the decibel is logarithmic don't you? How's that work again? Well, here's an example:
A mosquito's buzz is often rated with a decibel rating of 40 dB. Normal conversation is often rated at 60 dB. How many times more intense is normal conversation compared to a mosquito's buzz?
Answer: 100 times
See the point?
And about those sound walls...the Train To Nowhere elevated sections will be on average 35 feet up in the air. Now we need to build another 3-5 feet of sound wall? That's going to look real, real attractive friend. Oh well, at least it will give the graffiti artists additional canvas.

The article projects the rail at 75db. The table shows one rubber tire solution at 74db and the other at "less than 80db". That's a nice way of saying 79db. I understand it's logarithmic but again, how is rubber superior to steel in this case?

Oh, if the elevated structure is already 35 ft high, that's a pretty touch challenge for graffiti artists to scale to paint on the sound walls. Btw, sound walls don't have to be concrete, there's glass since you're concerned about "visual blight". Or another option is to install solar panels on these walls to help with the power supply challenge for the train.

Tsarbomba wrote:

Let's not lose sight. Everyone is flipping out about noise from steel on steel but noise is just one factor in choosing a technology. Reliability, mature technology, number of available vendors...all of these weigh heavily on the long term cost of the project. Sound walls actually do wonders with noise mitigation, and we're not talking about 10 ft high walls. All you need are 3 ft barriers to redirect the sound upwards.

Tsarbomba,

You evidently don't live within 1/2-mile of the proposed route. Otherwise you wouldn't be so cavalier about the noise factor (not to mention vibrations).

The rail people admit that the noise factor may hurt property values. If I were living within 1/2-mile of that proposed track, I'd be looking for compensation.... Afterall, the City will be taking value from me.

A condemnation or eminent domain lawsuit looks very appropriate here.

"The project won't prevent traffic along the busy H-1 commuter corridor from worsening."

Then why are we doing this again? Shouldn't we be trying to get cars off the roads?

Refuse to become a compliant victim of a railroading that will not solve highway congestion.

Bad Bachi and Shibai!

On Tuesday March 11,208. The Honolulu Advertiser Lead story on rail reveals Mufi's plan which is to "push out" opponents with the momentum of a runaway locomotive. The political machine led by Mufi who said, "if we tried to build in the Downtown urban corridor, we would never get started. It would be in the courts every other week ... ". Does Mufi believe in the tooth fairy? Does he think landowners will stand down against eminent domain once the train is half built?

Is the cost of litigation included in Mufi's multi-billion dollar elevated railroad?

Mufi says it's already plenty noisy and the train noise will blend in with the city's cacophony. Honolulu honchos proclaim that TheBus is 83dB's at 50 feet. Does that mean that Waikiki noise law is toothless or should The Bus be banned from Waikiki?

Can Waikiki sue Honolulu Hale for violation of excessive noise 41-31.2c?

" The fine for this violation shall be $100.00 for the first offense,$500.00 for the second offense committed within six months of the first offense, and $1,000.00 for the third offense committed within one year of the first offense"

Lying with eye wide open and in your face. Judge Judy says "If it doesn't make sense - it's a lie!"

Hiring train thugs touted as experts for a PR snow job is obviously in the following
Confabulation: If existing noise is at 69 dB's how is that supposed to mask out 84dB's.

Remember for each db, there is an increase of ten times. 79 dB's in TEN TIMES NOISIER than 69 dB's