Australia Feels Chill as China's Economic Shadow Grows

ngali wrote:

<quoted text>
Well I don't know that these ideas are mutually exclusive at all. How do you figure that?
A free press, and independent judiciary help safeguard against excessive executive power - such as human rights and civil rights abuses. They're also considered foundational institutions of a functioning democracy BECAUSE they do curb the government's power, so those issues are interconnected for a start.
I support human rights, civil rights, free press, and an independant judiciary for ALL of China - be that Tibet or Beijing.
HUMAN rights - should be just that - I don't particularly care if you're a Han Chinese, Australian Aboriginal, or a Sudanese African. All people deserve a basic standard of living free from oppression.
I really don't understand why supporting that would arouse so much opposition.

ok, I've been to almost every part of china, including Tibet and Uigur area, i think I know this country better than you.

you were right on something

1. the press is still under gorvernment censorship, and can't really speak and criticize as freely as its western counterparts, open-minded and independent media is important for a nation, I feel sad that there are so many narrow-minded and naive people in china, without access to objective and full information, people can be misguided and used easily.
It applys to the western people too, I don’t call western media to be open-minded and independent, since most are private owned and seek desperately attention rather than justice, they just offer articles and pictures that cater to their target readers for the sake of market share. There are so many threads and people like you in this forum bad mouthing about china, I don’t blame them, as western media have never stopped demonizing china how can I expect the people to be fair and unbiased.

2. independent judiciary is something china needs and striving for, the western systerm has its own merit which deserves learning . if china still holding this type of dictatorship, and the ordinary people still have no saying in official appointment, independent judiciary would be out of the question.

ngali wrote:

<quoted text>
Well I don't know that these ideas are mutually exclusive at all. How do you figure that?
A free press, and independent judiciary help safeguard against excessive executive power - such as human rights and civil rights abuses. They're also considered foundational institutions of a functioning democracy BECAUSE they do curb the government's power, so those issues are interconnected for a start.
I support human rights, civil rights, free press, and an independant judiciary for ALL of China - be that Tibet or Beijing.
HUMAN rights - should be just that - I don't particularly care if you're a Han Chinese, Australian Aboriginal, or a Sudanese African. All people deserve a basic standard of living free from oppression.
I really don't understand why supporting that would arouse so much opposition.

But you failed to see the full picute, as china is a large country with long and complicated history, to understand fully and correctly of everything happen in china is just beyond your ken

1. china is making progress but she’s not being westernized, this conutry has been dominated by confucianism for thousands of years, chinese people can dress in western styles, watch western movies, eat western food, a chinese youth like me even traveled to western countries, dating and being attracted to white men, but deep inside, the traditional value remains intact, the chinese way of thinking still there.

2. human right means different things for different people, for peasants who live in poverty, it means enough food, basic shelter, a job to make a living , and chance to change their life; For educated unban middle class and elite, it means freedom to do what they want to do while their property and right are guaranteed ; For followers of a religion, it means freedom to choose which god they follow. You can’t just say there’s no human right in China, it’s unfair! Basically china guarantees its citizens most things they need to live a happy and decent life.
I don’t think you have to vote to claim your civil right, even in the US, where the election is held to choose the political leaders, ordinary people still don’t have much saying in it, it’s run by the elites in the interest of big shots, ordinary people just get the illusion of democracy for which they pay a large number of money and time.

3. hegemony? You people don’t really care about it, do you? You just like your medias and gorvernments, trying to play the tibet card, human right card, taiwan card to confront china for your own interests. Again I don’t blame you ,after all, the world follows jungle law, but I understand how a hypocrite acts like from you.

sorry, I double post , something wrong with topix

hellokitty81 wrote:

<quoted text>
ok, I've been to almost every part of china, including Tibet and Uigur area, i think I know this country better than you.
you were right on something
1. the press is still under gorvernment censorship, and can't really speak and criticize as freely as its western counterparts, open-minded and independent media is important for a nation, I feel sad that there are so many narrow-minded and naive people in china, without access to objective and full information, people can be misguided and used easily.
It applys to the western people too, I don’t call western media to be open-minded and independent, since most are private owned and seek desperately attention rather than justice, they just offer articles and pictures that cater to their target readers for the sake of market share. There are so many threads and people like you in this forum bad mouthing about china, I don’t blame them, as western media have never stopped demonizing china how can I expect the people to be fair and unbiased.
2. independent judiciary is something china needs and striving for, the western systerm has its own merit which deserves learning . if china still holding this type of dictatorship, and the ordinary people still have no saying in official appointment, independent judiciary would be out of the question.

In china you have media deception by communism in the west we have media deception by class. In the west the rich and in control like to decieve and lie to the ordinary people there are evils in both systems, cause there are bad people in every country and in every system

This country is selling itself out completely! Laws have been change that mean foreign nationals can own property here, all in the name of keeping the property market alive. And people born here struggle to but a home whilst others stay for 3 months a year, and the rest of the time the place is unoccupied. Australia DOES NOT care for Australians. Just Investors. Sick Society we have become..

hellokitty81 wrote:

<quoted text>
But you failed to see the full picute, as china is a large country with long and complicated history, to understand fully and correctly of everything happen in china is just beyond your ken
1. china is making progress but she’s not being westernized, this conutry has been dominated by confucianism for thousands of years, chinese people can dress in western styles, watch western movies, eat western food, a chinese youth like me even traveled to western countries, dating and being attracted to white men, but deep inside, the traditional value remains intact, the chinese way of thinking still there.
2. human right means different things for different people, for peasants who live in poverty, it means enough food, basic shelter, a job to make a living , and chance to change their life; For educated unban middle class and elite, it means freedom to do what they want to do while their property and right are guaranteed ; For followers of a religion, it means freedom to choose which god they follow. You can’t just say there’s no human right in China, it’s unfair! Basically china guarantees its citizens most things they need to live a happy and decent life.
I don’t think you have to vote to claim your civil right, even in the US, where the election is held to choose the political leaders, ordinary people still don’t have much saying in it, it’s run by the elites in the interest of big shots, ordinary people just get the illusion of democracy for which they pay a large number of money and time.
3. hegemony? You people don’t really care about it, do you? You just like your medias and gorvernments, trying to play the tibet card, human right card, taiwan card to confront china for your own interests. Again I don’t blame you ,after all, the world follows jungle law, but I understand how a hypocrite acts like from you.

I think maybe the very poor in Tibet can benefit from the chinese educational system which has helped the poor which is one of the great higlights of cummunism . So much commentary in the common media of the west comes from the middle class or wealthy and heridatry wealthy educated at universities to pro- class dominated perspectives which condemns anything like communism which seeks to give greater power to the poor people or that addresses the western class system which creates elite groups. The promblem is the theorires of marx and maoism has yet to transcend into a succesful model of government communism . Some say the recent new china has found a new way by meeting half way a new type of half capitalism-communism

Pablo wrote:

This country is selling itself out completely! Laws have been change that mean foreign nationals can own property here, all in the name of keeping the property market alive. And people born here struggle to but a home whilst others stay for 3 months a year, and the rest of the time the place is unoccupied. Australia DOES NOT care for Australians. Just Investors. Sick Society we have become..

pablo australia is dominated by the wealthy who are sometimes very selfish and very ignorant yet the intellectual heavyweights in australia come from the working classes and the poor yet they get little access to the common media which is another type of dictatorship in australia

Rong wrote:

<quoted text>
There are lots of bullshit and misguided nationalism in this matter.
1)If I am not mistaken, most of Rio Tinto shares are held by the British and not Australians.
2) Rio Tinto also has lots of mines all over the world eg in Canada, Indonesia and South Africa. Be careful u don't spread your nationalism around and become a victim of other people's nationalism.
3) China only wanted to buy 15% of Rio. What's the big deal?
4) State own companies are demonized. The alternative is the oligarchy. How is that any better? 36 tycoons in Russia own 30% of Russia's economy. 2% population in US own 90% of US wealth.
Is that suppose to be the right thing to do? Those who keep parroting propaganda for the oligarch should pause and think.
5)To be fair to Australia, Chinalco's failed bid has nothing to do with all the disinformation, but a lot to do with China's success.
Commodity price went up in Q1 because China's economy is growing. Rio Tinto's fortune went up with it. Chinalco's offer became less attractive.
When Rio rejected the offer the it's share price went up. I think it's fair.

There is nothing wrong with RIO started by Australian entrepeneurs wanting to keep RIO owned by Australian and british interests after all many australians are descendants of british settlers.

The arrest of stern HU who is a chinese Australian shows strategy behind it. By the way a frien of stern hu was quoted as saying that the claims of spying are ludicrous.

The arrest has 3 prong purpose It sends a message to the large group of chinese race expats around the world that the communist chinese can still control a chinese once he becomes a fervent capitalist.
So the chinese in singapore and Indonesia and malaysia and australia and the US and Taiwan will be watching this closely as they have a confusion about communist China who many fear and oppose.

The Chinese Communist Govt are clever and they show stategy in this move not only did they arrest stern Hu while the G8 and G5 and the australian PM were convened in Italy sending a message to the western leaders that they do not fear the capitalist powers, but also

That the price of iron ore negotiations is still in negotiation .
China was seeking a radical 45 percent lowering of the iron ore price, while south korea and japan accepted a 30 percent

Mark wrote:

Its not exactly fair to compare a country of 300 million to one of 20 million that acts as a fuel depot for countries with few resources. America actually has plenty of resources, even exports food to here, but a country of 300 million relies on high tech industry and technology to prosper.
I think if America keeps its military strong it will continue to prosper. I think we need to attack another country, maybe Iran or North Korea, that would give our arms industries a big boost. I would love to see Ahmadenijad's bullet ridden body on CNN like they did for the Hussein larvae.

To attack Iran might be OK, but attacking North Korea, we will have to fight China. Remember the Korean War in the early 50s. We were beaten and asked them to stop. They said OK, and Korea remains divided. The late Chinese PM, Zhou Enlai once said: "You can start a war with us (China), but we will tell you when to stop." Awesome!

Why the emotion? Australia would have done exactly the same to China in a reverse situation.
Australian Laws above others?

China says has proof Rio Tinto staff stole state secrets

China said Thursday it had evidence proving detained Rio Tinto staff stole state secrets, as the affair threatened to boil over into a diplomatic row with Australia summoning the Chinese ambassador.

Stern Hu, the Australian head of the Anglo-Australian mining giant's Shanghai office, faces criminal charges for stealing state secrets on foreign countries' behalf, Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Qin Gang said.

"Competent authorities have sufficient evidence to prove that they have stolen state secrets and have caused huge losses to China's economic interest and security," Qin told reporters.

Chinese authorities collected evidence against Hu before arresting him and other Rio Tinto staff on Sunday, Qin said. Shanghai authorities earlier confirmed the others were three of Hu's Chinese colleagues.

The incident has cast a shadow over Australia's relations with one of its largest trading partners, in which Rio Tinto plays a key role as a major supplier of iron ore and other raw materials to China's growing economy.

The miner has led difficult talks with China over new iron ore contracts, which missed a key deadline at the end of June, and a month after it snubbed a major cash offer from China's Chinalco.

The executives allegedly used improper methods, including bribery, to coax secrets from Chinese steel executives during the contract negotiations, according to reports in two Shanghai government-run news outlets.

China's foreign ministry said the espionage allegations should be treated as an isolated case and that it did not want it to affect its important trade relationship with Australia.

"It's improper to exaggerate this individual case or even politicise it, which will be no good to Australia," Qin said.

Australia's Mandarin-speaking Prime Minister Kevin Rudd rejected opposition calls Thursday for him to discuss the case with China's President Hu Jintao.

"The key thing is not for politicians... to begin trying to politicise issues like this but rather let's get on with the practical business of working with the very difficult case on the ground," Rudd told reporters in Rome.

However, Australia's foreign ministry announced that the acting Chinese ambassador, Hong Liang, had been called in on Thursday over the issue and that the lack of consular access to Hu was among the issues raised.

After the meeting, Chinese authorities said Australian diplomats could meet Hu on Friday, an Australian statement said.

Foreign Minister Stephen Smith earlier said he had seen no suggestion that Hu's detention was linked to Rio's fraught iron ore talks with Beijing or its decision to reject Chinalco's offer.

Last month, the debt-laden miner turned down a 19.5-billion-dollar cash injection from Chinalco after deciding that rising commodity prices made a rights issue and joint venture with BHP Billiton more attractive.

The four Rio Tinto executives are being held by China's secretive state security ministry, which handles counter-espionage operations.

In Beijing, police also arrested Tan Yixin -- the head of iron ore trading at Shougang Group steel company, who had "close contact" with Hu -- for suspected commercial crimes, the 21st Century Business Herald reported.

A Rio Tinto spokesman told AFP it was not giving out more information on the sensitive case, but the company indicated it had been taken by surprise.

"We are not aware of any evidence that would support such an investigation," the company said in a statement.

hellokitty81 wrote:

<quoted text>
But you failed to see the full picute, as china is a large country with long and complicated history, to understand fully and correctly of everything happen in china is just beyond your ken

"Ken"? What - you're Scots Chinese?

Seriously, tell me about it. It'd be so much more constructive than telling me how I just don't understand, and I'm naive, biased etc etc.

Just what is it about China's history that I don't know?

hellokitty81 wrote:

1. china is making progress but she’s not being westernized...

I realise Confucianism sets up a heirarchical system that is inherently authoritarian. It implicitly relies on dominant and subservient roles to be played in relationships between groups and individuals - but those in positions of power have duties and responsibilities to those whom they have power over.

I don't see CCP actions in censoring information, having a politicised judiciary and repression of dissent as being characteristic of a benevolent, or just ruler.

hellokitty81 wrote:

2. human right means different things for different people... You can’t just say there’s no human right in China, it’s unfair! Basically china guarantees its citizens most things they need to live a happy and decent life.[/QUOTE[

Well, there is a universal conception of human and civil rights, and you yourself seem to adhere to that idea given your previous post. A fair and just legal system, freedom of expression, and freedom from repression - particularly violent repression.

[QUOTE who="hellokitty81"]
I don’t think you have to vote to claim your civil right...

No, voting in itself does nothing to guarantee civil rights, but checks and balances to executive power and an independent judiciary certainly do. They are the features of democracy that China is lacking.

hellokitty81 wrote:

3. hegemony? You people don’t really care about it, do you? You just like your medias and gorvernments, trying to play the tibet card, human right card, taiwan card to confront china for your own interests. Again I don’t blame you ,after all, the world follows jungle law, but I understand how a hypocrite acts like from you.

Yeah, this is the kind of Chinese reactionary response to ANY problem. Foreigners are trying to drag China down, outside influences are the cause of all of China's problems and without their devilment all would be hunky dory.

You seem intelligent enough to know that's simply not true.

ngali wrote:

<quoted text>
Yeah, this is the kind of Chinese reactionary response to ANY problem. Foreigners are trying to drag China down, outside influences are the cause of all of China's problems and without their devilment all would be hunky dory.
You seem intelligent enough to know that's simply not true.

You don't even what is our problem and how we are going to react it. I don't think you are intilligent enough.

Tell me if you don't try to drag China down, what are you trying to say here.

You don't critize someone without a motive. You have been in this thread for so long. Do you have any goal you want to achieve?

Sly wrote:

<quoted text>
To attack Iran might be OK, but attacking North Korea, we will have to fight China. Remember the Korean War in the early 50s. We were beaten and asked them to stop. They said OK, and Korea remains divided. The late Chinese PM, Zhou Enlai once said: "You can start a war with us (China), but we will tell you when to stop." Awesome!

yes, china will fight if the us try to invade north korea, it concerns the state security, we do not have choice!

north korea must be preserved, it's the only way to keep the us from setting up its military bases along the korea-china border.

tom wrote:

<quoted text>
I think maybe the very poor in Tibet can benefit from the chinese educational system which has helped the poor which is one of the great higlights of cummunism . So much commentary in the common media of the west comes from the middle class or wealthy and heridatry wealthy educated at universities to pro- class dominated perspectives which condemns anything like communism which seeks to give greater power to the poor people or that addresses the western class system which creates elite groups. The promblem is the theorires of marx and maoism has yet to transcend into a succesful model of government communism . Some say the recent new china has found a new way by meeting half way a new type of half capitalism-communism

no, tibetants are not poor, they are wealthier than average han chinese.
and they are not that into education like han chinese. they are just relaxed and enjoy their slow-paced life.

most countries try invade china through korea from history (japan, usa intended) so i assume china wouldnt let other attack north korea i assume

I think this brings into question . Should Australia be sending iron ore coppers and uranium and other precious valuable metals to China which may very well be used by the Chinese to help build navy warships and war armanents. In effect Australia may be a helping developer of the chinese armed forces .

hellokitty81 wrote:

<quoted text>
yes, china will fight if the us try to invade north korea, it concerns the state security, we do not have choice!
north korea must be preserved, it's the only way to keep the us from setting up its military bases along the korea-china border.

I don,t think the US is that stupid. the US will never invade north korea, or China but if north korea invades south korea then a fight will be on there for sure and south koreans will fight the north koreans

louis wrote:

I think this brings into question . Should Australia be sending iron ore coppers and uranium and other precious valuable metals to China which may very well be used by the Chinese to help build navy warships and war armanents. In effect Australia may be a helping developer of the chinese armed forces .

Hi mate, we do not send armed forces to all the wars like Australia do! Please do not try to demonise us as a country! Fair dinkum.

Tang wrote:

<quoted text>
Hi mate, we do not send armed forces to all the wars like Australia do! Please do not try to demonise us as a country! Fair dinkum.

fair go exactly my words. how about a fair go for stern Hu and his friends and letting that chinese australian free.

What is wrong with Mr hu do Chinese hate their own race like mr hu.