Judge it!Well then that settles it,,,,They must be building better cars,,,that's why people are buying themAs an update, some follow-up research indicates the frontrunners for Honda's new plant right now are Indiana and Ohio. Definitely not right-to-work states.
I find it very interesting how in those two states, there's plenty of Nissan/Honda/Toyota plants which are all non-union, but the Big Two are heavily unionised. Has the UAW tried organising the transplant assembly factories in Indiana and Ohio? How have the transplants avoided the unions in those states while the Big Two haven't?
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Toyota and Honda take care of the people pretty well; which they can do being non union. We have a plant in town. People who work there are happy and not having the hassle of being caught between the union cartel and the company is nice. It also means the company can focus more on being good to it's people; and it expects good work from it's people. The people who work there are concerned about what they build not just about putting in their time.
People also know if they Unionize the company will take it elsewhere. Large companies who have had unions for years are at a big dissadvantage. GM, Ford are paying people have so much liability in pension, and layed off workers they may not make it through the next 10 years! We have another union plant down here and to hear the stories of what people get and get away with makes you wonder how they can make any money. It's a good job to get some sleep on 3rd shift to say the least! |
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Number 1, I'm NOT a man. Number 2, you did NOT address any issues. Number 3, another fine example of the lack of thought and foresight that's made us a third class nation. I believe that either you have no skills that are protected by a union any longer. Therefore unions are bad because they enable others to earn a living wage. The other option is that you are a small business owner that employs others. You realize approximately twice as much in the way of profit as you pay them for their labor. Do you own a service station w/small repair shop? Charge $50.00 hour for labor and pay maybe $15.00??? Name the business, maid service, window cleaning, small engine repair, ditch digging, septic tank cleaning...no matter what, that's the formula. One third for wages, one third(maybe) for overhead and one third for the owner's(private or corporate) pocket. When there were STRONG UNIONS most workers had HEALTH INSURANCE, some places free even for their families. We had good economic times. An average rule of thumb for a house price was three years salary (this was when there was ONE wage earner in a household), and it was a nice new "modern" house. A brand new car, very nice one was about 6 months wages for an average worker. You could buy a cheapie like a volkswagon bug for way less, about $1,500. The American dollar was WORTH SOMETHING on the world market. So now, the American dollar has fallen to such a low point that now foreign nations are building plants here to take advantage of the cheap labor. Any you guys out there think this is a good thing, what a JOKE!!! And you're looking foreward to working in those plants to earn a wage that'll just (maybe) keep your head above water, there are none so blind as those who will not see. What a sorry lot, selling out to foreign intrests at every opportunity. You have been forecast to be the first generation to not be as financially well off as their parents. I guess you're working real hard to have that distinction. |
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Oh you have been robbed! Stand up and take it back Union Man!
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You arguments are a bunch of crap. Your rhetoric supports throwing out the unions. The high paying union jobs have destroyed the industry and driven it from the USA or into Bankruptcy which everyone pays for. People talk about the high paying union jobs but they fail to mention how it comes at the expense of destroying it for everyone else. That is where the greed is.
The Union is what made it possible for Honda and Toyota to be so successful in our own country! |
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She's spouting the typical union they haves and we are entitles to BS. Union has nothing to do with work for wages.
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So please explain why the ecomomy was so much better as was the quality of life here in the US when unions were so strong. Please explain why when unions were broken the economic picture did NOT suddenly become much rosier. Shouldn't we all be better off now that fewer than 20% of workers are represented by unions??? Should firms be recording record profits???? Hey, wait a minute, aren't MANY recording those record profit??? The reason that auto manufacturers are going broke is they're not manufacturing a product people WANT. They don't PLAN. They offer low,low financing and for awhile were offering even 0% financing. They hacve plenty of bad debt figured into their bottom line too. How about EXECTUTIVE (as in non-union) salaries??? Ceo's of many corps making tens if not hundred of millions of dollars. You idiots are worried that some worker EARNS twenty dollars an hour. I'm glad you'll lose your jobs, lose your houses and perhaps sleep in that Honda or Toyota, you're just green with envy and not only clueless but brainless and talentless or you'd be there working one of those "UNION" jobs too. Wise up phone jockeys, your jobs are goin to India. I don't feel sorry for what will happen to those of you that decry unionization. You most definitely will get what you're asking for, even lower wages and an even lesser standard of living. I heard on CNN today that right now, 29% of people that bought houses last year now have homes valued at less than their mortgages, NOT WHAT THEY PAID, their mortgages. Buffoons abound, talking heads that spout nonsense. Well, the solution for you guys is simple...DON'T WORK A UNION JOB OR IN A UNION PLANT WHERE YOU GET UNION SCALE. No one says you have to. Do any of you READ?? Do any of you have any idea of what history is? I just can't get over how dumb people are nowadays. And the funny part is, you think you are "smart" Oh well, enjoy life in your Toyota or Honda. And just think you won't be forced to join a union or make union wages. Meanwhile the head of the corp you toil for will make tens of MILLIONS. God who put you people on the planet? |
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Simply because as a Nation we were not competing on the world level that we are today |
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The monkey-boys do not join your argument because they have no answers. They are programmed by the dopey O'Reillys, and Buchannons and Limbaughs, and Kristols, or the traitor Robert Novak. . These people answer all serious comments with slogans, bluster, or outright dissembling (blame Clinton for the coming inflation, the press is dominated by left wingers!) They talk and vote agains their own self interest because they operate from predjudice. At the base of their belief system is good old, American racism. They won't admit it, sometimes even to themselves. The whole swing to the right began with Mr. R.M. Nixon's "Southern Strategy" with its code words of "Law and Order" really meant GET OUT THE SHEETS. . You will get no explanation from them on why our economy heads down the drain every time a bush or Reagan get a-hold of it. They are blind to the unpopular but practical measures that Mr. Clinton made to reduce the deficeit, by postponing the middle-class tax cut that he promised. Now, the Bushites have ravaged the treasury, ruined the health care delivery system, gutted pensions and damaged Social Security, made drugs unaffordable, and given our great-great-grandchildren a debt to pass on to their children. The wreck the economy with their voodoo economics, and blame unions, left wing press, and the devil. Well they got the last part right. It is the Devil: IN his guise as the Anti-Christ. Can you guess who the anti-Christ is? I'll give you a hint, he was preceeded by the false prophet, his father, George HW Bush. . That's right George Walker Bush is your Anti-Christ. Worship at his alter at peril to your immortal soul. ... BEWARE THE ANTI-CHRIST: his ways are attractive, his smile seductive, but his actions are those of the searpent; but you can't see that--you are already in his thrall. RUSHITES you will BURN !!! |
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I think it's funny how people resort to getting rude and throwing stones instead of discussing things! You would think we were in Cuba the way people act.
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The people in Unions have lived the good life at the expense of the people and at the expense of industry. Much of the industry that was here in the 70’s is now off shore. The people talk about what a good job it was until they went into bankruptcy. At which time the rest of the country had to pay. I am glad it was a good job but destroying the company in the mean time was a cowardly way of earning a living. You have held business hostage and you oppose NAFTA because you would like to hold a country hostage.
The industry that is left in this country is largely outsourcing to other countries and is still struggling under the burden of Unions. GM and some of the auto workers may not make it in the next 10 years. WAY TO GO UNIONS. I AM SO PROUD OF YOU! YOUR JOB HAS DONE THIS COUNTRY WELL! The airlines are under such a stronghold from the unions they all file bankruptcy from time to time and we ALL pay for that. They can’t move their services off shores. The industry such as Honda and Toyota have provided good jobs in our country and are more AMERICAN then the damn Unions. You guys make me sick! I am very ashamed of you guys! |
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Unions, thankyou for destroying our companies, driving our industry out of the country and making everyone else pay your way!
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Unions are responsible for a lot of the laws that protect workers that are not unionized such as minimum wage, child labor, 40 hour work weeks, lunches and breaks, occupational safety, etc. It is naive to think that the American workers and consumers are worse off because of unions for failure to look at the entire picture. Besides, when you have better wages, you have more money going into the economy -- kind of like a Bush tax cut, only with someone other than the rich getting the benefit.
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I've gotta ask....are YOU working for $8.00 an hour???????? If not SHUT UP! |
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Why dont you do a little research. 1. Assembled here is not the same as made here. Which is what alot of Japanses companies are brainwashing Americans to think. The majoroty fo the parts on these so called cars are sourced from oversears. 2. The legacy costs for newly established planst here are not the same as for firms that have been around for 70-100 years. Well see what Toyota and Honds do in 50 years when they have two generations of workes that have run through a plant and have to pay for all their retirement and healtcare etc. 3. Toyota in Ohio has been notorius for having their workers denied healhcare service because of Toyotas poor payout on healthcare of employees. Dont believe me?? Do some research. 4. Fact American Auto Industry is dominated 4-1 by the Big three employment wise. Now if your hell bent on buying Japanese at least make sure the North American parts content of the Japanese cars is 70% or greater. This means the parts are mostly made here on the North American continent, helping as many workers as we can here. The unions need to find a balance somewhere they can have "decent wages" and making sure jobs stay here on US soil. What you have now is a dysfunctional union misleading their members to receive as many unions dues as possible. The writing is on the wall. The unions have to change or they wiull die and possibly hurt the big three in the process. GM and Ford have had enough and I dont blame them at all. |
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Mr Bill,
Your stuck in a different era. What you say may have been fact 5 years ago but this just isnt the case anymore. American automakers produce good cars now. Look at Caddilac. Look at the products from Ford, in the 500, the Zephyr. The new cars from GM's pontiac division, and Saturn. Your comments are those of a lazy American unwilling to honestly re-asses their views for the good of your country. Americans make a good solid product now. Though the Japanese are excellent, the Americans make a product good enough to really honestly say to yourself. Is it worth it anymore to pay 3-4000 dollars for an overpriced Japanese make for a solid made American product. I suggest you do some research. People like you come off as ignorant fools to those like us who understand the industry to its core. Your view is outdated and needs refreshment
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You couldnt have said it any better my man.
Unions have transformed from being a look out for the owrker to look out for thermselves. I sure would love to open the books of the unions in this country and see where and how the union dues have been spent. I would be willing to be there are quite a few union chiefs living the good life, at the expense of those the supposedley protect. the union idea is like communism. In ideaology its a great idea, in reality its stupid. Why? It doesnt take into account the X factor, which is a human in control. Like the communists Unions are full of hypocrites manipulating those under them to better themselves while claiming to look out for the same people they are screwing over. Its a shame but its true
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1) The Japanese workers are also enjoying high payrolls in their auto industry. GM, Ford and Chrysler also outsource their parts. 2) Honda est. 1947, Toyota est. 1935. Nissan (datsun) est. 1914 3) Healthcare can be a mess in any industry 4) Correct You basically agreed in a related remark about the Unions looking out for their best intrest not in the intrest of the common worker. That is the single source of their downfall. |
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Steve, I'm sorry, but this is a complete myth which has been debunked many times on these boards. Fact is that the transplants have just about the same domestic content as the Big Two, and some have even more. For followup research, I'd suggest you checking out these links: http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/apps/pbcs.... - gives some current domestic content percentiles, of which you'll see just a couple of percentage points in favor of the domestics, but also note that the domestics are moving in the *wrong* direction - more offshoring, while the Japanese are moving in the *right* direction - more domestic content. Within just a couple years, the Japanese will be ahead in this regard. http://alamoworksource.org/toyota/suppliers.a... (Suppliers of Toyota's new Texas plant - they're just about all in Texas) http://www.dallasfed.org/research/vista/vista... (2001 Fed study - 76% of Tier 1 suppliers are within 400 miles). http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m30... (registration required)- Toyota Sienna and Honda Ridgeline more 'American' than Ford Mustang and Chevy Silverado. On a side note, are you ready for a surprise? Check out the following domestic content percentiles for vehicles assembled in North America: Chrystler PT Cruiser: 60% Chevy Avalanche: 61% Toyota Avalon: 70% Chrysler 300: 72% Honda Ridgeline: 75% Honda Civic: 75% Toyota Camry: 80% Honda Accord: 97%(!!) I’m not making these up - just google “domestic content [make][model]”, or if you don’t trust the internet just head down to your nearest dealership. When you buy any vehicle in the US, if you look hard enough there’s a sticker which displays the domestic content. Displaying this is required for all vehicles sold in the US, per the American Automobile Labeling Act (AALA) of 1992. The AALA’s definition of “domestic content” includes Canadian parts (but not Mexican). As such, trying to determine solely the USA parts content is nearly impossible. Yes, I did cherry-pick somewhat in the cars above. Most of the Big Two’s vehicles are closer to the 80-percent range, and a Prius (true import) will be close to zero. Just making a point – if it’s assembled in North America, most of its parts will be from North America, no matter what Make. |
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2) I agree with your basic assertation that the Big Two are at a disadvantage because of the generations of retirees they're paying for right now, but disagree that Toyota and Honda will have the same troubles in 50 years. Most, if not all (every one that I've heard of, at least) of TM and Honda plants are enrolled in a 401(k)-type system instead of the pension plans of GM and Ford. The advantages/disadvantes of pensions vs 401(k)s is a complex argument for another board...But in the end, Toyota and Honda are basically paying for their retirees health care right now. Won't have the exponential increase in cost when their employees retire. 3. Basically the same response as 2. 4. Your 4 to 1 is debatable, but so is pretty much any number on this measure. In the end, yes the Big Three employ more people, but they also not-coincidentally have a much bigger market share still. It's almost 3 to 1, despite all the negative press. Measurements of American employed based on a per-car basis are complicated and vary greatly, mostly depending on who's doing the research and who's paying them to do it. |
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