was Hitler an antchrist or a hero?

please keep this an actual discusion and not a reason to bash jews.
i just want to see what the worlds real take is on this not just what we are taught in history class.

pony up wrote:

please keep this an actual discusion and not a reason to bash jews.
i just want to see what the worlds real take is on this not just what we are taught in history class.

hitler was an excellent orator and did a lot of good things for germany such as the autobahn which president roosevelt came back and modeled our US highway system after.

however, he will go down in the books as the genocidal maniac he later proved himself to be.

Black-Cuban_Mami wrote:

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hitler was an excellent orator and did a lot of good things for germany such as the autobahn which president roosevelt came back and modeled our US highway system after.
however, he will go down in the books as the genocidal maniac he later proved himself to be.

i agree,the people fallowed him because he promised something better,and by forcing out the comunists and the jews he returned germany to its people and made them strong as a people again.
i can't see where the torture and the concintration camps came in though,forcing them into being refugees and dumping them on his oposition would have been a better tactic.
loosing the war was the best thing that happened to germany, it forced them to split up the military wich left alot of money to go around, they invested into industy and technology and germany and its people are a strong nation today.
so its just point of view scumbag or savior?whenever anyone thinks of him its always the killer but there was so much more

wiKKdKitty wrote:

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blame the latter on the chemicals he was ingesting,.

i actually saw a history channel documentary about some doctor that would like follow him around and dope him up. also, apparently in the later years he showed signs of parkinsons.

pony up wrote:

<quoted text>i agree,the people fallowed him because he promised something better,and by forcing out the comunists and the jews he returned germany to its people and made them strong as a people again.
i can't see where the torture and the concintration camps came in though,forcing them into being refugees and dumping them on his oposition would have been a better tactic.
loosing the war was the best thing that happened to germany, it forced them to split up the military wich left alot of money to go around, they invested into industy and technology and germany and its people are a strong nation today.
so its just point of view scumbag or savior?whenever anyone thinks of him its always the killer but there was so much more

there was a lot more, however.. it's sorta hard to forget the whole "this way to the showers" sorta thing.

personally, i have no problem seperating someone's acheivements from their atrocities. bad deeds don't negate previous good ones.

HOWEVER, people will never see the good because there will always be a lot of pain, anger, and resentment for his misdeeds.

He lost the war so...... He'll be remembered as a genocidal maniac.

Had he won the war he would be remembered as the person who united much of Europe. Made the trains run on time. Got the german people out of debt and made their country great and strong. Helped bring all of Europe into the industrial age. Liberated parts of Africa. Ect ect ect.

Because the victors write the history books. And the losers go down looking fairly bad for it.

ixlnxs wrote:

He lost the war so...... He'll be remembered as a genocidal maniac.
Had he won the war he would be remembered as the person who united much of Europe. Made the trains run on time. Got the german people out of debt and made their country great and strong. Helped bring all of Europe into the industrial age. Liberated parts of Africa. Ect ect ect.
Because the victors write the history books. And the losers go down looking fairly bad for it.

i've always said that.

victors write the history.

in the case of hitler, he did do some bad things, but at the same time.. i wasn't there, i wasn't alive then and i believe that history is and can be totally manipulated.

it's not called HIStory for naught.

whenever i travel to germany and i go from east to west germany it's always a mindf*ck for me. it's like it goes from modern to industrial.

but one of my favourite places in germany is leipzig. i have a lot of friends in leipzig and it is very eastern germany in architecture, but the mentality is very progressive like berlin used to be in the early 30s.

hitler had a lot of amazing ideas and germany in the modern DOES have a lot to owe to hitler.

but the whole oven thing and concentration camp thing just ultimately left a tremdously bad taste in the global mouth.

what i find most odd, is that people cannot see past his atrocities to see that he really did a lot of good for germany and now, as such, germany is one of the EU powerhouses..if not THE eu powerhouse.

however the whole gassing and genocide thing deservedly garners a bad taste.

i have no problem saying the strong points of hitler. he did have many strong points..

but he had some gnarly viewpoints as well that resulted in a major humanitarian atrocity that will be really hard for people to get over.

still doesn't negate the good he did in the world. but the word *hitler* and *good* just sound wrong in the same sentence.

wiKKdKitty wrote:

very astue! mever thoughtof it like that... but you are SO right!
remember htat Twilight zone movie, where the guy couldnt leave the prehistoric path or the history of life would be effected.. so he accidently killed a bug and wen he got back to time, the free world was speaking german....
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i'm a twilight zone freak.. i've never seen that one!

i always try to record the twilight zone marathons on sci-fi.

that show may be old as F*CK.. but i always manage to see new (old) episodes from them.. i've never seen that one.

wiKKdKitty wrote:

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I think i saw that one or one like it.. the doctor was shooting im up with "Vitamins" which were really vitamins enriched with amphetamine.

i had it on my DVR but i deleted it.. but it was on the history channel. they also spoke about (on that same like series) about his esoteric and astronomical beliefs etc.

it was very fascinating.. my son must have deleted it off the DVR to make more room for "that's so raven" or pokemon or some sh*t.

but it was GOOD. it talked about how he had some creepy doc dude who would like follow him around with this quack pot shots or pills or something.

however it did show him exhibiting parkinsons-like tremors/trembles of the hands when he was like shaking hands with various dignitaries.

it was trippy tho.

Black-Cuban_Mami wrote:

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hitler was an excellent orator and did a lot of good things for germany such as the autobahn which president roosevelt came back and modeled our US highway system after.
however, he will go down in the books as the genocidal maniac he later proved himself to be.

The anti genocidists actually bring up some huge issues and if it wasn't for one huge factor they would be huge to controvert. One of the major genocide deniers was not allowed to have his witness, an international holocaust expert, present his testimoney in court. The man I speak of, whose name eludes me at present, has been to some of the death camps and found areas cut off to the public but made some very profound observations that fuel his theories.
He basically said the showers were to decontaminate inmates who were suffering from a heavy scourge of epidemic working through Europe at the time. This had also infected camp guards. These and other findings he has published are very convincing but are also disregarded by the courts. As you say, the victors control and write history. The Confederate states of America have been terribly misinterpreted, besetted upon by the Lincoln myth and northern war criminals. This I would bring out on another thread.

The facts though is that milions of jews can testify to their treatment at the hands of the Nazi's and if they were merely being confined the Germans would have had no need of the SS organisation or the TOD (death) group which profited from slave labour and worked jews to death.

I will also note the death numbers from these camps seem to go up as the years go by. The 3 million when I was at school has doubled to 6 mill. Russian claims seem to have remained stable at around the 50 mill mark which is hard to reconcile no matter how big the country is.

btw mami, watch for me on youtube.'wikiriwhi'

esp in the southern patriot groups.

hinamanu wrote:

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The anti genocidists actually bring up some huge issues and if it wasn't for one huge factor they would be huge to controvert. One of the major genocide deniers was not allowed to have his witness, an international holocaust expert, present his testimoney in court. The man I speak of, whose name eludes me at present, has been to some of the death camps and found areas cut off to the public but made some very profound observations that fuel his theories.
He basically said the showers were to decontaminate inmates who were suffering from a heavy scourge of epidemic working through Europe at the time. This had also infected camp guards. These and other findings he has published are very convincing but are also disregarded by the courts. As you say, the victors control and write history. The Confederate states of America have been terribly misinterpreted, besetted upon by the Lincoln myth and northern war criminals. This I would bring out on another thread.
The facts though is that milions of jews can testify to their treatment at the hands of the Nazi's and if they were merely being confined the Germans would have had no need of the SS organisation or the TOD (death) group which profited from slave labour and worked jews to death.
I will also note the death numbers from these camps seem to go up as the years go by. The 3 million when I was at school has doubled to 6 mill. Russian claims seem to have remained stable at around the 50 mill mark which is hard to reconcile no matter how big the country is.
btw mami, watch for me on youtube.'wikiriwhi'
esp in the southern patriot groups.

i don't know how old you are, but i grew up with the 6 million number. i wasn't alive during that time so i really don't know what happened other than what i read.

obviously it wasn't a picnic for people and there are photos that illustrate the atrocities.

i homeschool my child and recently i took him to simon wiesenthal museum. i have been there before, and i even got to speak to a holocaust survivor many years ago. i spoke to her afterwards.. because i had questions that weren't truly addressed in the seminar. i felt bad, i like cornered this (then) like 80 year old lady who was a young child during the time.

she was in bergen belsen and told how she was spared because she was blonde/blue so was her father.. but her mother and siblings were *exterminated*.

i picked her 80 year old brain as much as i could. she wasn't bitter of her experiences, she saw a lot of bad things as a child and lost a good portion of her family, but she never held any ill thoughts of her captors. she told me it was NOT only jews in the camps. she said there were also black people, gypsies and like gay people there. they all had different patches on their clothing.

i was only like 13 when i met her, but she taught me that no matter WHAT you go through, if you survive, you're a survivor.. and NOT a victim.

i applied what she told me then to my own life. as a result i have little patience for the *victim* mentality.

the holocaust was real, also a little exaggerated as well. the books speak of the jewish torment, yet it neglects everyone else who also faced the chambers.

the holocaust was very real, but it is often exaggerated. i find it rather interested that jewish people can go ON and ON about the holocaust yet they, as a people, have largely moved on.

i really wonder why black people can't do the same. a lot of blacks habour resentment and i feel it's holding us back.

i don't hold resentment towards ANYONE unless they piss me off.

wiKKdKitty wrote:

yeah, the first time I came across a "new" one, I was CONVINCED it was twilight zone FOREEAL!
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i wanna see it!

lol my favourite zone episode is the dude who like wanted some peace, went into the vault to read a book. a nuclear holocaust like occured and then he was left in the vault with his books and no one else.. LOL then his glasses broke.

haha

wiKKdKitty wrote:

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thats one of my favorites too.. how about that one and the one where the people wake up hung over in a doll house...
and of course, the cornfield one

aww the kid who could wish people into the cornfield.. LOL i remember that one. sometimes i still wish people into the cornfield.

remember the one about the creepy doll.. talkie tina or something like that? lol and cojack put her into a vice grip, lol burned the doll with a torch and it still kept saying it was going to kill him.

aaah, i miss that show.

wiKKdKitty wrote:

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thats one of my favorites too.. how about that one and the one where the people wake up hung over in a doll house...
and of course, the cornfield one

oh, and i never saw the dollhouse one. lol people woke up hung over in a dollhouse?

i wonder what the creator of that show was smoking because i want some lol

I have 2 relatives that were both alive at that time and in germany. One is an inlaw and she saw Hitler Speak at 2 seperate ocasions. She said the stories of him being a good speaker were very true but he was scary and twisted all along not just at the end. The other realtive is my mothers uncle. He fought in germany with canadian forces and liberated some of the death camps. He has been so badly hurt by what he saw he will only speak of it to a few members of the family. In the 60's they did not mention it in schools in Canada . My mother asked her uncle what happened over there and he told her of the mountains of bodies ect...
Apparently all the horrors we see and reqad about now are just the tip of the iceberg. I think in a few generations people will not know how bad it was. I am meeting more and more 20 somethings that don't know who hitler is or what the Holocaust is.
The whole point of remembering is to prevent it from happening again. In time hitler will be forgotten and be neither hero or anti christ.
For now , for me ,he was a man full of hate that took it out on many people not just jews.

Cal native wrote:

I have 2 relatives that were both alive at that time and in germany. One is an inlaw and she saw Hitler Speak at 2 seperate ocasions. She said the stories of him being a good speaker were very true but he was scary and twisted all along not just at the end. The other realtive is my mothers uncle. He fought in germany with canadian forces and liberated some of the death camps. He has been so badly hurt by what he saw he will only speak of it to a few members of the family. In the 60's they did not mention it in schools in Canada . My mother asked her uncle what happened over there and he told her of the mountains of bodies ect...
Apparently all the horrors we see and reqad about now are just the tip of the iceberg. I think in a few generations people will not know how bad it was. I am meeting more and more 20 somethings that don't know who hitler is or what the Holocaust is.
The whole point of remembering is to prevent it from happening again. In time hitler will be forgotten and be neither hero or anti christ.
For now , for me ,he was a man full of hate that took it out on many people not just jews.

god i hope you're not right about people forgetting. that is something that the world simply cannot afford to recur.

wiKKdKitty wrote:

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as long as this western civilizatrion holds, Hitler will NOT be forgotten... he left too big an impact. I am surprised Idi Amin is not more recognized.

I see sharply after Australia apologised to the aborigines, the uS govt has apologised to the Native Americans. The timing is incredibly obvious. Its like the system is trying to annex history. The new world order label is being ressurected as well. A new paradigm is being presented to us and nuclear ahnihilation is being tauted as acceptable. There's nothing any more in the media describing nuclear weapons as negative.
the nuclear frontier is emerging and the old histories and names are being lost to the sands of time.

pony up wrote:

please keep this an actual discusion and not a reason to bash jews.
i just want to see what the worlds real take is on this not just what we are taught in history class.

What history class? What Nation? Each history of each Nation puts its own brand of history on it. Didn't you know that or did just one Nation indoctrinate you because you never went to at least 12 different Nations to study?

There is no such things as God, Antichrist, or Christ, thus Hitler was not one of those.

Hitler was like Bush is, and that is a bad person.

Hitler killed 4 million gays and lesbians as well as 6 million Jews. Bush killed millions of innocent Iraqi civilians and the true number will never be known.

Is a mass murderer who killed 30 people worse than one who killed 10 people or are they the same?

wiKKdKitty wrote:

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as long as this western civilizatrion holds, Hitler will NOT be forgotten... he left too big an impact. I am surprised Idi Amin is not more recognized.

he was pretty goddamn brutal too. he had so many bodies sent up river once (i believe it was the Nile) that they like clogged a dam!

hinamanu wrote:

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I see sharply after Australia apologised to the aborigines, the uS govt has apologised to the Native Americans. The timing is incredibly obvious. Its like the system is trying to annex history. The new world order label is being ressurected as well. A new paradigm is being presented to us and nuclear ahnihilation is being tauted as acceptable. There's nothing any more in the media describing nuclear weapons as negative.
the nuclear frontier is emerging and the old histories and names are being lost to the sands of time.

i think that was very well said.