College leaders say state needs more top-tier universities

Wow. I wonder how shocking it will be to the school and the city when UTEP comes in 7th of 7 behind such powerhouse institutions at UTSA and UTD.

Here's a hint, Dr. Natalicio...top tier schools don't allow anyone who can spell their name into their University. They have what we call "standards." You see, top tier schools generally have a "process" by which "the masses" are "weeded out" and "students" are accepted into their "top tier school." I can't believe UTEP is even on the list of contenders.

Keep on giving out watered down degrees to the illiterate masses, Texas-El Paso Community College and someday...no...nevermind.

zzz wrote:

Wow. I wonder how shocking it will be to the school and the city when UTEP comes in 7th of 7 behind such powerhouse institutions at UTSA and UTD.
Here's a hint, Dr. Natalicio...top tier schools don't allow anyone who can spell their name into their University. They have what we call "standards." You see, top tier schools generally have a "process" by which "the masses" are "weeded out" and "students" are accepted into their "top tier school." I can't believe UTEP is even on the list of contenders.
Keep on giving out watered down degrees to the illiterate masses, Texas-El Paso Community College and someday...no...nevermind.

I agree totally! To be a top tier school, you would have to have higher GPA's , and (OMG) higher SAT scores (that means higher than a 950 under the old system) You would also have to stop catering to the mexican national students who cross the border and offer ALL of your classes in english! UTEP is a joke. In order for UTEP to become a tier one school, our local school districts need to prepare our college bound students with a rigor (not busy work) that will prepare them for a top education. I believe that alot of our students who do attend real top tier one universities have a rude awakening to them. They just were not prepared for the type of work involved. If they are a good student and have the motivation to work hard and achieve-- they will succeed, but in reality I ask--do all of our high schools prepare our college bound students with that high level of rigor? Are they teaching the same courses at the same academic levels throughout El Paso? Or-- are we just teaching our infamous test and awarding high GPA's because we want to look good, and not hear it from the helicopter parents? Reconsider making UTEP a tier one school. Raise the expectations at UTEP before considering this. After finishing a masters degree from another school in another state, then taking a couple of graduate level courses at UTEP-- I thought I went back to middle school--- Raise the bar, before this is considered. Don't water down a degree just because you can say--see we have many hispanics graduating and earning higher level degrees! Make El Paso proud!

zzz wrote:

Wow. I wonder how shocking it will be to the school and the city when UTEP comes in 7th of 7 behind such powerhouse institutions at UTSA and UTD.
Here's a hint, Dr. Natalicio...top tier schools don't allow anyone who can spell their name into their University. They have what we call "standards." You see, top tier schools generally have a "process" by which "the masses" are "weeded out" and "students" are accepted into their "top tier school." I can't believe UTEP is even on the list of contenders.
Keep on giving out watered down degrees to the illiterate masses, Texas-El Paso Community College and someday...no...nevermind.

You are absolutely correct. The article quotes Dr. Natalicio, "The greatest impediment is underestimating what an institution like UTEP can do," she said. She is wrong; the single greatest impediment is Dr. Natalicio herself. As long as she advocates an open admission policy, UTEP will remain a FOURTH TIER institution. I am sorry to say so because I graduated from UTEP as a Top Ten Senior and still maintain a sense of loyalty. However, it is not a blind loyalty.

The first step in UTEP transitioning to even the third tier is to fire Natalicio. Then appoint a president who is committed totally to preventing slackers from gaining admission.

Great! Does that mean that the university faculty will now get course reductions in order to have more time to pursue research endeavors, obtain grants and publish, publish and publish? Course reductions are common practice at other Tier One institutions. Why not UTEP? It's easy to talk the talk - how about walking the walk?

Yep, I too attended grad school elsewhere (after graduating from Coronado and then attending UT for my undergrad degree) before returning to finish up my grad work at UTEP. WOW. What a shock. It really was like returning to middle school. And I learned that it had nothing to do with the profs; most of whom would prefer to ramp up the curriculum and standards but can't or they face a situation where they are failing more than half of a class. There are good profs at UTEP...USE THEM. Stop accepting anyone who is big enough to put the money on the pay-counter. Natalicio has no one to blame but herself; and that's a fact. Biggest Hispanic school? Who cares. Why don't we try to get the BEST students and not just the MOST STUDENTS. I have no problem with Mexican national students, nor classes in Spanish, but PLEASE stop just accepting all comers. Why not just claim we have the most left-handed students or the most students with a bowtie? It's a stupid statistic that has nothing to do with the quality of the education.

zzz wrote:

Why not just claim we have the most left-handed students or the most students with a bowtie? It's a stupid statistic that has nothing to do with the quality of the education.

LOL

The most left-handed students or most with a bowtie -- that's witty and right on the mark. There were students in many of my classes who had no business attending a university; it's a wonder how they even graduated from high school.

It is amazing that those who are erudite enough to post in the prestigious local paper would be oblivious to several facts concerning higher education:

1. You get out of it what you put into it; if you are going to be a sheep in an easy class, you will not gain as much as if you are going the extra mile.- If students will not put forth the effort to question, experiment and dig past the course materials, then very little can be done from an educator's standpoint.(but at least they get the basics)
2. The goal of higher education is to provide for all that wish to better themselves. If the above readers truely believe in their statements, then we have a model that would fit them right across the border in Mexico. Do the research on their educational system and see if those precepts would fit your needs, as the vast majority of the citizens never get a chance at University.
3. Achievement is measured by several factors, one of which might be academic standing. Another, which is more important to me, is the 'nugget' of the truth of life you gain while being exposed to many different academic areas and many different peoples. That experience comes from higher education.

In closing, it shows ignorance to lay blame on a single person in a large institution for imaginary short comings when outcomes, in any large organization, are actually dependant on entities within the institution (for example VPs ,etc) and entities outside the institution (for example the UT System).

William Pena wrote:

<quoted text>
LOL
The most left-handed students or most with a bowtie -- that's witty and right on the mark. There were students in many of my classes who had no business attending a university; it's a wonder how they even graduated from high school.

I bet they got a grant for doing so to help with their well deserved secondary education.....Ahh, El Paso. Sometimes you just have to shake your head and laugh at the thoughts that float around this city. If it weren't 600 miles from nowhere, maybe people would know better.

3rd Generation Educator wrote:

It is amazing that those who are erudite enough to post in the prestigious local paper would be oblivious to several facts concerning higher education:
1. You get out of it what you put into it; if you are going to be a sheep in an easy class, you will not gain as much as if you are going the extra mile.- If students will not put forth the effort to question, experiment and dig past the course materials, then very little can be done from an educator's standpoint.(but at least they get the basics)
2. The goal of higher education is to provide for all that wish to better themselves. If the above readers truely believe in their statements, then we have a model that would fit them right across the border in Mexico. Do the research on their educational system and see if those precepts would fit your needs, as the vast majority of the citizens never get a chance at University.
3. Achievement is measured by several factors, one of which might be academic standing. Another, which is more important to me, is the 'nugget' of the truth of life you gain while being exposed to many different academic areas and many different peoples. That experience comes from higher education.
In closing, it shows ignorance to lay blame on a single person in a large institution for imaginary short comings when outcomes, in any large organization, are actually dependant on entities within the institution (for example VPs ,etc) and entities outside the institution (for example the UT System).

Third Generation Educator...Wow...that is exactlly how I feel. This University has helped many people, has grown in stature, is a growing economuc engine, evolving almost every day into an institution that WILL become a formidable, educational institution.

Dr. Natalicio's goal is to make UTEP a Tier 1 school. She has been recognized by many at the state and national levels for the success at UTEP. Those who cannot see that choose to do so based on their own beliefs and that is their right but bottomline, UTEP is moving forward at lighting speed.

With a quarter of a billion dollars in planing and construction within the next three years that says a lot; confidence from the state is shown and with the federal dollars coming, from Washington too. Critize all you want, but most are focusing on the positive.

With the growth of this region , UTEP will grow too and is poised for great things. I am very proud of UTEP and so are many of its Alumni.

3rd Generation Educator wrote:

It is amazing that those who are erudite enough to post in the prestigious local paper would be oblivious to several facts concerning higher education:
1. You get out of it what you put into it; if you are going to be a sheep in an easy class, you will not gain as much as if you are going the extra mile.- If students will not put forth the effort to question, experiment and dig past the course materials, then very little can be done from an educator's standpoint.(but at least they get the basics)
2. The goal of higher education is to provide for all that wish to better themselves. If the above readers truely believe in their statements, then we have a model that would fit them right across the border in Mexico. Do the research on their educational system and see if those precepts would fit your needs, as the vast majority of the citizens never get a chance at University.
3. Achievement is measured by several factors, one of which might be academic standing. Another, which is more important to me, is the 'nugget' of the truth of life you gain while being exposed to many different academic areas and many different peoples. That experience comes from higher education.
In closing, it shows ignorance to lay blame on a single person in a large institution for imaginary short comings when outcomes, in any large organization, are actually dependant on entities within the institution (for example VPs ,etc) and entities outside the institution (for example the UT System).

Third Generation Educator... Wow....Gee..... Golly.....Yipeee..... Hooray...that is exactlly how I feel. This University has helped many people animals and wetbacks, has grown in stature, is a growing economuc engine, evolving almost every day into an institution that WILL become a the Bestest formidable, educational institution of all time.

Dr. Nataliciciclciolico's goal is to make UTEP a Tier 1 school. She has been recognized by many at the state and national and global levels for the success at UTEP. Those who cannot see are blind and that choose to do so based on their own beliefs and that is their right but bottomline, UTEP is moving forward at lighting speed, OH THE EXCITEMENT!

With a quarter of a billion trillion dollars in planing and construction and nuturing within the next three years that says a lot; confidence from the state is shown and with the federal dollars coming, from Washington and Fort Knox too. Critize all you want, but most are focusing on the positive.

With the growth of this region , UTEP will grow and grow and grow too and is poised for great Super Duper things. I am very proud of UTEP and so are many of its Alumni. UTEP will be the Bestest University in the Galaxy!

The El Paso Times quotes Dr Natalicio as follows: "The biggest hurdle on the University of Texas at El Paso's path to the top tier, Natalicio told lawmakers, is that others don't see the school as a winner." and "The greatest impediment is underestimating what an institution like UTEP can do."

I think that she is the biggest hurdle and the greatest impediment to UTEP's efforts in moving to the next level. After 20 years of dictatorial control, dismal graduation rates continue to be the lowest in the state. Even UT PanAmerican has better graduation rates ( 7.8% and 13.2%). These rates continue to occur despite millions and millions of dollars invested by the National Science Foundation, The National Institutes of Health, NASA,....), and despite Dr Natalicio's high salary. I think it is time for some fresh ideas. Obviously, hers are not working.

UT El Paso graduation rates 1997 -1999 from "The University of Texas System Graduation Rates Initiative Progress Report" April 2007
Four-year Rate 2% 4% 5%
Five-year Rate 15% 16% 18%
Six-year Rate 26% 27% 28%

The change from 1998 - 2002 (Four-year graduation rate for UTEP)
From 3.6% to 4.4%(Source: Accountability and Performance Report
2007-08, UT System)

That's some classic El Paso thinking for you. It must be the fault of the lousy students that were allowed into the school and not the administration who let them in.

Really? You get out what you put in? No kidding? You mean there are actually good students who learn something at UTEP? Gosh, I'm glad you're here. Otherwise I would have thought 100% of the students at UTEP were illiterate Mexican Nationals who wore bowties (*- this is called "sarcasm," UTEP grads).

Before you defend this "institution," I recommend spending some quality time at both UTEP and another educational institution that has actual standards. I'm not joking when I say that the level of "what you put in" was significantly higher during the one session of summer school I took at Austin Community College than it was from my fellow students in my time in grad school at UTEP.

UTEP, for whatever reason; I don't care where you put the blame, is never going to be a Tier One University as long as it is the "last resort" of mediocre students all over West Texas and Southern New Mexico.

@zzz:

You're absolutely correct. UTEP, for some odd reason, is trying to be a Northern Mexican university, rather than a true American regional university. This is easily seen in the low admission standards and large remedial programs on campus (I commented on this in another thread). I had some great instructors at UTEP, but as a former part-time instructor there, I also saw how those same faculty members were beaten down by the administration for having classes that were deemed "too difficult."

What's so exasperating is that this situation could be turned around very, very quickly--in less than one year. But Natalicio and her apologists refuse to allow in any sort of academic rigor. If UTEP wants to be a Tier 1 school, it had better get its academic foundations in better condition.

There is one reason why UTEP is in this position: Natalicio. She has brought in funding and facilities, and I do credit her for that. But while the buildings are nice, what goes on INSIDE the buildings is much more important. UTEP had tougher standards in the 70's and early to mid-80's. Granted, UTEP was not as well-known then as it is now, but the education was solid. That started to change when Natalicio took over. She increased the school's visibility, which is great, but she also sacrificed the school's academic reputation in the process.

Hey UTEP--here's some free advice: get rid of remedial classes, raise SAT admission scores, stop giving preferential treatment to international students (read: Mexican nationals), especially with regards to on-campus employment, and dump the whole, "We just need to provide education to Hispanics" schtick. I'm Hispanic, and I'd rather have a university that provides a top-notch education that can compete on a national level. You're sure as hell not doing your Hispanic students any favors by giving them a sub-standard education.

And you if need to raise tuition a bit to fix these holes, such is life. This ain't Wal Mart, folks.

I'm a proud UTEP Miner, and always will be. But we UTEP grads also need to call attention to the shortcomings at the university and to those who refuse to address them.

Well said UTEPGrad. I have to agree that if only Natalicio left the seat for somebody who is willing to change the standards UTEP will be much better. Trying to be a top tier requires sacrafices and drastical changes but most of all the willingness. Yes increase the tuition, parking fees, any fee they want and give me a top notch education that is recognized anywhere. I have not had a chance to study elsewhere but meet people who had and they agree that if only UTEP had different standards people would want to attend to study rather that to socialize. Not only mexicans come here, you have indus and chinese too. One thing it should change now is the university spends more money on a sports rather than the education itself. I think sports are secondary to what the university offers. Yes I am a proud miner and I know my team sucks but my education should not.

@Texas Man:

I do have to disagree with you on one item. The school does not pay for athletics. That's funded through ticket sales, donations, etc. The problem isn't the football/basketball programs, it's the emphasis on "serving the El Paso/Juarez" community alone, and not having the courage to try to become a nationally ranked university.

It's so sad, considering we have schools in relatively short driving distance (U or Arizona, Arizona State, UT-Austin, Texas Tech) that don't seem to lack this courage.

One thing you guys need to understand is that School Administrators (The Principal) doesn't allow us to teach higher standards to our kids. Kids have been trained to "tune out" the teacher when the class gets tough/rigorous. They know if a teacher has a high failure rate, then the teacher is investigated, written up, dismissed, harrassed...etc. This has been going on for at least the past 30yrs. Then you have the permissive parents, who complain to the principal "He/she is a hard teacher and is failing my kid!" Admin coward down to the parents! Students, other permissive teachers/faculty, and permissive parents all turn on you, and make your life a living hell. The good teachers, in the eyes of admin/parents/kids, are the once who give easy asssignments. So, society needs to change in order to impove this situation. But that looks not likely to happen soon. Just look at the thread "Superintendents: Bad Tenured Teachers..." many people blame the teacher for their lack of parenting.

You know you are right, the problem starts with the parents. You want your child to have everything easy and not to stress much. I come from a family that if I wanted a toy I had to work for it and I don't mean cry because I would get hit on the spot. But now a days is a little stupid how the student/kid has overpowered the parent/teacher. Now the trow you in jail for yelling or hit a kid. The result of this is the lack of interest on their part to learn and achieve better survival skills. Hence the low standards everywhere. Yes UTEP should change that but the parents need to do the same starting in kindergarden.

William Pena wrote:

<quoted text>
You are absolutely correct. The article quotes Dr. Natalicio, "The greatest impediment is underestimating what an institution like UTEP can do," she said. She is wrong; the single greatest impediment is Dr. Natalicio herself. As long as she advocates an open admission policy, UTEP will remain a FOURTH TIER institution. I am sorry to say so because I graduated from UTEP as a Top Ten Senior and still maintain a sense of loyalty. However, it is not a blind loyalty.
The first step in UTEP transitioning to even the third tier is to fire Natalicio. Then appoint a president who is committed totally to preventing slackers from gaining admission.

So true! Too many unprepared commuter students from Juarez, and lousy El Paso high schools.

High drop-out rate, and most graduates take 5-7 years to get a BS Degree (no pun intended).

natalico keeps chuTEP 13th grade