Energy consultant: Cap and trade leaves unanswered questions

I think it's great that there are forums allowing constructive debate about the merits of different emissions reductions systems, but I think this article oversimplifies a carbon tax and perhaps overcomplicates cap and trade.

The initial problem with a carbon tax is political -- almost as soon as you label a bill a "tax", it makes it politicall unviable. Most of the proponents of a carbon tax in Congress are really just using it as a stall tactic. In addition, a tax really isn't much simpler than a trading system - think about our tax code. Would anyone describe that thing as simple? As soon as a tax is passed, a bijillion companies will be applying for exemption. If they don't get it, maybe they'll decide that it's worth it just to pay the fine and continue to emit carbot -- negating the purpose of the tax in the first place.

A cap on emissions, on the other hand, at the very least guarantees reductions in emissions. Yes, there's the issue of allocations and what to do with revenue from permit auctions - but you have that same issue with a tax (what to do with tax revenue).

We have a solid piece of cap and trade legislation working its way through Senate Committee, and already passed through the house. It's not perfect, but with continued negotiations the major concerns can be effectively addressed. Please urge Sens Bingamen and Udall to support climate legislation -- as Schell points out, "businesses just want to know the rules." Let's get the rules established so we can get started on building a clean energy economy.

krisg wrote:

I think it's great that there are forums allowing constructive debate about the merits of different emissions reductions systems, but I think this article oversimplifies a carbon tax and perhaps overcomplicates cap and trade.
The initial problem with a carbon tax is political -- almost as soon as you label a bill a "tax", it makes it politicall unviable. Most of the proponents of a carbon tax in Congress are really just using it as a stall tactic. In addition, a tax really isn't much simpler than a trading system - think about our tax code. Would anyone describe that thing as simple? As soon as a tax is passed, a bijillion companies will be applying for exemption. If they don't get it, maybe they'll decide that it's worth it just to pay the fine and continue to emit carbot -- negating the purpose of the tax in the first place.
A cap on emissions, on the other hand, at the very least guarantees reductions in emissions. Yes, there's the issue of allocations and what to do with revenue from permit auctions - but you have that same issue with a tax (what to do with tax revenue).
We have a solid piece of cap and trade legislation working its way through Senate Committee, and already passed through the house. It's not perfect, but with continued negotiations the major concerns can be effectively addressed. Please urge Sens Bingamen and Udall to support climate legislation -- as Schell points out, "businesses just want to know the rules." Let's get the rules established so we can get started on building a clean energy economy.

Kris, all your favorable ranting on text is not going to bring jobs and increased opportunity to the possibly & already laid off workers in the Four Corners, due to energy companies reeling from a possible cap and trade bill. Many families are suffering and unable to cope with this economic downturn, and in opposition to Obama's claims, very few jobs are actually being created. So Kris, please explain to the general population of the Four Corners, how your wonderful ideas are going to bring back these out of work-folks out of the homeless shelter and be able to at least pay the rent for his wife and children? I'm so tired of hearing theories, and want to hear true solutions to this crisis.

Realistically wrote:

<quoted text>
Kris, all your favorable ranting on text is not going to bring jobs and increased opportunity to the possibly & already laid off workers in the Four Corners, due to energy companies reeling from a possible cap and trade bill. Many families are suffering and unable to cope with this economic downturn, and in opposition to Obama's claims, very few jobs are actually being created. So Kris, please explain to the general population of the Four Corners, how your wonderful ideas are going to bring back these out of work-folks out of the homeless shelter and be able to at least pay the rent for his wife and children? I'm so tired of hearing theories, and want to hear true solutions to this crisis.

I too am so tired. I'm so tired of people like you blaming everything on the wrong thing. So, I would like for you to tell all of us what energy companies in the Four Corners are reeling from a C&T bill that hasn't even been written yet. What energy producers do you know of have laid off recently because of "green house" gas emission's reduction?
Seems to me the majority of companies that are laying off are associated with oil and gas drilling and operations. Don't think C&T has much to do with that.
Also, please tell us your solutions to this crisis having to do with C&T.

PS
This is a new wrinkle for you mis-blamers. Most, are blaming this econ down turn in the Four Corners on the "new pit rules" and Governor Richardson.Now it's Obama, the stimulus and C&T. What next,Dems and gay marriage?
FTR, I don't know of any energy producers that have said C&T will result in reduced demand for energy and therefore C&T sould not result in any lay offs. You may experience higher electricity bills but there will be no reason to believe there would be a lay off.

oneeyedjack wrote:

<quoted text>I too am so tired. I'm so tired of people like you blaming everything on the wrong thing. So, I would like for you to tell all of us what energy companies in the Four Corners are reeling from a C&T bill that hasn't even been written yet. What energy producers do you know of have laid off recently because of "green house" gas emission's reduction?
Seems to me the majority of companies that are laying off are associated with oil and gas drilling and operations. Don't think C&T has much to do with that.
Also, please tell us your solutions to this crisis having to do with C&T.
PS
This is a new wrinkle for you mis-blamers. Most, are blaming this econ down turn in the Four Corners on the "new pit rules" and Governor Richardson.Now it's Obama, the stimulus and C&T. What next,Dems and gay marriage?
FTR, I don't know of any energy producers that have said C&T will result in reduced demand for energy and therefore C&T sould not result in any lay offs. You may experience higher electricity bills but there will be no reason to believe there would be a lay off.

You're right Jackshiit, the CT bill has not been set forth to damage oil and gas companies from drilling operations. But there is big talk on the inside what will happen when the CT bill is enacted. Jackshiit, it's apparent you do not work in the oil/gas industry with your 2nd paragraph statement of "Seems to me...", knowing nothing of discussion in what will occur if the bill is utilized. So how would you know of any energy producers that have not stated anything about the CT bill, if you are recklessly assuming what's going on concerning layoffs in the oil-gasfield? "Seems to me" you should do much more research, and avoid looking like a liberal idiot stuck in his office all day, sniffing liquid paper and permamark pens.

I'll blame Democrat policies across the board for the downturn in oil and gas jobs and the associated revenues. Reactionary over-regulation has resulted in the inability of the industry to compete during economic downturns.

This has been repeated again and again in the important industries which built this nation, from timber, to mining, to the auto industry, to energy. When will Americans learn that the very policies enacted to "protect" us have actually harmed us? The industries which built the nation and thus provided the jobs and careers which supported us have been over and over sent to developing nations through expensive over-regulation. This in many cases has provided us with cheap foreign production of goods which were once made here, but at what cost to the long term health of the nation?

A government which destroys it's nations domestic manufacturing base and energy production capabilities is an enemy of the people. It's time we take the nation back from the politicians who think they know what's best for us, while at the same time they enact policies which harm us.

Democrats, and Republicans which act like Democrats, must be defeated in every election going forward if we are to survive.

'

Realistically wrote:

<quoted text>
You're right Jackshiit, the CT bill has not been set forth to damage oil and gas companies from drilling operations. But there is big talk on the inside what will happen when the CT bill is enacted.

Well,Realisticallymyarse, your initial post had to do with the here and now not what happens 2 years from now. But I seriously doubt you have the inside track on anything let alone what will happent to O&G because of C&T. What doe your Ouija Board tell you the connection is anyway?

Jackshiit, it's apparent you do not work in the oil/gas industry with your 2nd paragraph statement of "Seems to me...", knowing nothing of discussion in what will occur if the bill is utilized. So how would you know of any energy producers that have not stated anything about the CT bill, if you are recklessly assuming what's going on concerning layoffs in the oil-gasfield?

Sorry,Realisticallymyarse, this paragraph is so badly written I really can't make sense of it. From what I can discern you seem to be confused about what C&T attempts to control. It's CO2. I don't think drilling and pumping, etc releases much CO2 into the atmosphere. If you think it does, I would be interested in knowing the circumstance.So, if you know that C&T IS causing layoffs in O&G, tell me the connection. I'll listen.

"Seems to me" you should do much more research, and avoid looking like a liberal idiot stuck in his office all day, sniffing liquid paper and permamark pens.

"Seems to me", Realisticallymyarse, if you would spend more time understanding the meaning of things and less time trying to talk trash, you might learn something.
JFTR O&G layoffs in the in the area are very real and hurt a lot of people. Both liberal and conservative people. Don't try to trivialize it by using it to vilify liberals.
I would still like to know what industries, other than O&G have been laying off in the County.
Jackshiit.

oneeyedjack, what happened to your eye anyway, and why do you wear that patch over your good eye?

Paladin wrote:

oneeyedjack, what happened to your eye anyway, and why do you wear that patch over your good eye?

The answer to both is in the cards, mi amigo.